80
   

When will Hillary Clinton give up her candidacy ?

 
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Sun 7 Feb, 2016 09:05 pm
@georgeob1,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis

(many many interesting links to follow - I've been reading this intermittently for a couple of days and am only about 1/5 of the way through)

Quote:
It was discovered that the high levels of lead were due to orthophosphate being omitted from the water treatment process, whilst using a pH of 7.4 and that the orange water was due to the high concentration of chloride in the Flint River water, which caused excessive corrosion of the cast iron mains pipes [34].


https://jezhud.wordpress.com/2016/01/22/a-look-at-the-chemistry-behind-the-flint-lead-water-pipe-crisis/

Quote:
A look at the chemistry behind the Flint water crisis.


Quote:
phosphate was added to the Detroit Water but not to the treated Flint River water.


Quote:
Certain chemicals help to speed up the rate at which a metal is attacked or corroded and one of these is chloride. Metals such as iron and steels corrode particularly well in the presence of high concentrations of chloride. The treated Flint Water contained up to eight times as much chloride as the Detroit Water making it more corrosive to the cast iron water pipes in the distribution system. You can predict how corrosive a tap water will be by calculating the Larson Ratio, which is the ratio of chloride and sulphate to bicarbonate, Detroit Water has a Larson Ratio of 0.5, which is acceptable, whereas treated Flint River water has a Larson ratio of 2.6. Anything above 1.5 is regarded as being high and would be expected to greatly increase the rate of corrosion.

georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 7 Feb, 2016 11:43 pm
@ehBeth,
This is standard stuff in water treatment plants, conventional steam plants snd and in nuclear power plants where the chief source of distributed radioactivity is ordiary corrosion products (metals) dissolved in the circulating water, which becone irradiated while passing through the reactor..

In nuclear plants the primary coolant is highly purified distilled water with near zero dissolved solids and extremely low levels of chlorine, circulating in stainless steel clad pipes and circulating through the reactor fuel elements clad with corrosion resistant zircon alloy. As an extra precaution the water is doped with free hydrogen to absorb any loose oxygen atoms thsat msay be present. Finally the water is circulated through an Ion exchanger which continuously removes any chlorine or metallic ions that may be present.

In conventional powerplants and water treatment plants, phosphates are used to maintain an alkaline ph which supports a thin but stable oxide layer on the inner pipe material, effectively inhibiting further corrosion. This is a ubiquitous technology that dates back at least sixty years. It is very hard to conceive how any competent operators of the Flint municipal water treatment system could have decided that suspending the use of this simple but relaible system, even for a day, was a good idea.

In all of these plants continuous monitoring for chlorine concentrations is a universal norm. High concentrations of Cl defeat all of the above defenses, and contolling chloride concentrations is fundamental to safe operations even without the factor of human consumption.. It is equally hard to rationalize knowingly tolerating these high levels in the source water without using any of the readily available corrective measures.
blatham
 
  2  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 06:43 am
From EJ
Quote:
“Marco, the thing is this,” Christie thundered. “When you’re president of the United States, when you’re a governor of a state, the memorized 30-second speech where you talk about how great America is at the end of it doesn’t solve one problem for one person. They expect you to plow the snow. They expect you to get the schools open. And when the worst natural disaster in your state’s history hits you, they expect you to rebuild their state, which is what I’ve done. None of that stuff happens on the floor of the United States Senate.”

Ah, yes, governing is about running a government, even if Republicans aren’t supposed to like government.

...It’s not clear what Christie did for his own candidacy, but he performed a service by reminding his party that running a government is serious work and ought to be respected. That this was revelatory shows how far contemporary conservatism has strayed from the essential tasks of politics.
http://wapo.st/1mniHN1
revelette2
 
  2  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 07:05 am
@roger,
Quote:
My question would be who paid for the cake. Snyder or the state.


I hardly think that matters to the point. It is a kind of "let em' eat cake" impression. People in flint are really suffering and will continue to have many affects in their physical and mental health for at least a generation because of the horrible preventable situation. Meanwhile, the governor and his wife eat expensive cake. Not only a cake but a cake symbolizing his wife's love of shopping. Kind of a slap in the face to the people of flint.
blatham
 
  1  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 07:14 am
electablog has been reporting on and documenting this story for months. If there's a better resource out there, I don't know what it might be.

But as regards the cake... let's imagine a scale with, on one side, the decisions and acts of Synder's administration, the consequences for citizens, and that cake. And on the other side of the scale, what Pope Francis would think of this.
revelette2
 
  1  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 07:21 am
@blatham,
I agree with I think you are saying, eating a cake is not evil, but it just looks like he is out having fun while people are suffering.
blatham
 
  2  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 07:35 am
@revelette2,
"just looks like" is euphemistic. Does anyone see any reason at all to conclude he gives a damn about the citizens for which he is responsible?

Let me add... his moves to speak to and address this situation come only after it became evident he had a PR problem that might threaten his position of power and his ideology. In other words, it became a problem for him only when it became a problem for HIM.
revelette2
 
  3  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 07:40 am
@blatham,
No, neither do the people who work for him. The governors point person knew of the spike in Legionnaires disease a year before telling his boss.

source

BTW, thanks for info about a source for information on the subject.
blatham
 
  1  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 07:45 am
@revelette2,
Yes. And one has to be incredibly stupid and almost inconceivably amoral to miss the relevance of EJ's point above in this Flint story.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 08:18 am
"He's Still Alive" - Bill Kristol on Trump and the future. As I've noted, Kristol serves as my 'how is the GOP/modern conservative movement doing' mine-canary.
Quote:
It’s been one scary horror movie. But now, at last, the happy ending. The slasher is dead. The aliens have been defeated. The flesh-eating zombies have been disposed of once and for all. The vampires will never suck blood again. You exhale. You relax. You heave a sigh of relief.

Big mistake! As even the most casual observer of cinematic conventions knows, this is the moment of maximum peril. The moment when, suddenly, the slasher's not really dead. The aliens aren't all gone. The zombies haven't been disposed of. The vampires are stirring. They're BACK!!!!

Donald Trump lost Iowa. But he's far from politically dead and decisively defeated. Yet large parts of the Republican party and the conservative coalition remain as foolishly complacent as they were during his ascendancy. And some of the anti-Trump forces are now heaving sighs of relief and letting down their guard.

Don't! It's not as if he's fallen all that far. Trump lost Iowa by 3 percentage points. As we write on February 4, he seems to be maintaining a comfortable lead in New Hampshire. And who's doing much to persuade voters to abandon him? Not Chris Christie and Jeb Bush's super-PAC, who are desperately and irresponsibly focusing their attacks on Marco Rubio. Not elements of the Republican establishment, who agree with Jimmy Carter in preferring Trump to Ted Cruz.

And if Trump wins New Hampshire, what then? Winning New Hampshire after losing Iowa is a pretty good recipe for winning the nomination, as the examples of Ronald Reagan in 1980, George H. W. Bush in 1988, John McCain in 2008, and Mitt Romney in 2012 suggest. In fact, since the modern primary system really came into being in 1972, the eventual GOP nominee has always run first or second in New Hampshire. So it's dispiriting that more of an effort isn't being made to decisively knock Trump down and out.

Maybe the voters of New Hampshire will rise to the occasion on their own, deal Trump a death blow, and end the horror show. Or perhaps New Hampshire will be Trump's last gasp, and the voters of subsequent states will decisively reject him. But complacency at this point is unwarranted and could be disastrous. And hope is not enough, either. Republicans and conservatives—elected officials, donors, activists, and citizens—are going to have to finish the job that the Republicans of Iowa so creditably began.
Weekly Standard today
Kristol has two hats; strategist and propagandist. He's fairly effective at both. A commonplace left critique of him points to the many times his predictions have proven false but that entirely misses the point. Propagandists don't care in the slightest how their predictions come out because predicting (in the manner of a scientist running a set of experiments or a statistician or scholar trying to actually get things right) isn't the game. Grover Norquist said (in explaining the rationale for his Reagan Legacy Project) “If you want to contend for the future, you have to contend for the public understanding of the past.” Kristol tries to create a consensus and truth or facts are either convenient or inconvenient. That is their only role.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 08:22 am
@blatham,
What does EJ stand for? Economics Journal? Environmental Journal? Other?
parados
 
  3  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 09:05 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I stand corrected on the State manager of the city. However the choice of water source was not the likely source of the lead contamination. Instead the suspension of the phosphate treatment (by whom and for what purpose I don't know) was the likely cause


Which was put in place by the state regulators because they used the wrong numbers.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  4  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 09:09 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
That source is independent of where the city gets it's water, though that may have been an additional factor in this case. The phosphate treatment is a standard continuous procedure in almost all municipal water treatment plants all the time.Why it was interrupted in this case is inexplicable to me.

Except for the fact that the water in the Flint River was several times more corrosive than the earlier source. Using the same treatment as before would have not been nearly enough.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 10:03 am
@georgeob1,
If it was standard stuff, it makes it even harder to understand how Snyder and his team got it so very very wrong - after warnings.

Save a couple million bucks? put some poor people (yeah, not all of Flint has the problem, it's concentrated in some specific neighbourhoods) in significant danger? do nothing til the media really starts to look at you?

^ that is the standard stuff
georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 10:10 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

"just looks like" is euphemistic. Does anyone see any reason at all to conclude he gives a damn about the citizens for which he is responsible?

Let me add... his moves to speak to and address this situation come only after it became evident he had a PR problem that might threaten his position of power and his ideology. In other words, it became a problem for him only when it became a problem for HIM.


Think for a moment about the analogy here to Secretart Hillary Clinton's excuses about the State Department underlings who she said were responsible for failing to respond to the repeated tequests for added security measeues from our now dead ambassador to Libya. There is a difference however, As Secretary Clinton had direct hire and fire authotity over everty state department employee. The Governor of Michigan does not have that over the employees of the municipal water plant. I note you also ignore the roles of the Regulatory agencies in the state and the EPA.

Finally the eating a cake , while .... bit was somewhat tortured and melodramatic, don't you think? Why do I suspect that the facts that Snyder took over financially failing and corrupt Democrat city governments in Detroit (and Flint), and rescued Michigan from the grip of Labor Unions with a Right to Work law, thereby beginning the restoration of its manufacturing industry,is a related factor here?
blatham
 
  1  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 03:50 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Secretart Hillary Clinton's excuses about the State Department underlings who she said were responsible for failing to respond to the repeated tequests for added security measeues from our now dead ambassador to Libya.

Could you please locate and quote/link here what you refer to?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 04:06 pm
@blatham,
The previous security assistance requests of the late Ambassador to Libya, and others on his security staff, have been widely reported. Get out the Congressional record and read former Secretyary Clinton's testimony in the initial Hearings on the Benghazi incident .... the one culminating in her "At this point what difference does it make .... " outburst. In this hearing she responded to questions about her role in denying these repeated requests by saying they were handled by others in her department, in effect absolving herself for any responsibility.

I believe you know all that, and this is just a strangely self-righteous atempt at bullying. I am not moved.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 04:14 pm
@georgeob1,
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/03/world/africa/requests-for-bolstered-security-in-libya-were-denied-republicans-say.html?_r=0
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 04:18 pm
From Paul Waldman on Rubio's repetition of the talking point - what is really important is the content/context of what Rubio is saying.
Quote:
Let’s look more particularly at what Rubio said, after saying that Obama knows what he’s doing. “Barack Obama is undertaking a systematic effort to change this country, to make America more like the rest of the world,” Rubio said. “That’s why he passed Obamacare and the stimulus and Dodd-Frank and the deal with Iran. It is a systematic effort to change America.” He repeated the line about Obama wanting America to be like the rest of the world, and summed up at one point: “All this damage that he’s done to America is deliberate.”

Just to be clear, when a Republican talks about “the rest of the world,” he doesn’t mean it in a good way. So when Rubio says Obama “wants America to become more like the rest of the world,” he’s saying that Obama is trying to harm America, to bring it down, to weaken it, to punish it, to make it less than it has been and should be.

Let’s pause before we proceed to acknowledge how positively insane this idea is. The fact that it has been espoused by untold numbers of supposedly mainstream conservatives in recent years makes it no less so. It’s one thing to say that your political opponents are wrong, that their plans will fail, that they are unconcerned about problems that you believe demand immediate action, or even that their values are misguided. But it’s quite another to think that they are intentionally seeking the destruction of the country.

Yet that is just what Rubio argues. In his bizarre telling, Obama didn’t pass the Affordable Care Act because he wanted to provide health insurance to the millions of Americans who lack it and rein in runaway costs; he passed the ACA because he wanted to ruin the American health care system. He didn’t pass Dodd-Frank to avoid a repeat of the Great Recession; he passed it in the hopes of sabotaging the American economy. Obama, in short, wants his presidency to be such a catastrophe that we can never recover, because he is so driven by his hatred of America.

If you’re saying, “That’s ridiculous, nobody really thinks that,” or if you’re reminded of General Jack T. Ripper in Dr. Strangelove ranting about the communists sapping and impurifying our precious bodily fluids, it means that you’ve never watched Fox News or listened to conservative talk radio. Because these ideas have been staples of right-wing media for Obama’s entire presidency. The audiences for those programs have been told constantly that whatever problem Obama claims to be trying to solve, his actual intention is not to solve problems but to create them, so that out of the chaos will come a twisted, unrecognizable version of the country we once knew.

As Glenn Beck said, “Changing America into something other than it always has been is the goal, always has been the goal of this administration. There are enemies inside and outside the gates of our country.”

...as Newt Gingrich said in 2010, “What if he is so outside our comprehension, that only if you understand Kenyan, anticolonial behavior, can you begin to piece together [his actions]? That is the most accurate, predictive model for his behavior.”
http://wapo.st/20Gc9Mm

As Paul suggests, this is totally nuts. But it has been the consistent refrain in organs of right wing media not to mention the central theme of D'Souza's book (and "documentary") for eight years. Do any of these individuals actually believe what they are saying? It's possible, I suppose, but I think that's doubtful. Outside of Rubio, they've all become multi-millionaires pandering to and creating some of the worst aspects of the modern conservative audiences' fears/hatreds. As Paul suggests, Rubio knows this about those audiences and is simply saying what he figures they want to hear.

That a zest for power or office or even money would give licence to such civic destructiveness is beyond my comprehension.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Mon 8 Feb, 2016 04:20 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I believe you know all that, and this is just a strangely self-righteous atempt at bullying.

No, george. It is again an attempt to get you to adopt the most fundamental element of careful scholarship - citations validating claims.
 

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