IS IT GETTING MEAN AROUND HERE??

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

You're not a victim Hawkeye, you're a sensationalist. You just say things to shock, and you say some pretty disgusting things about women, children and the sort of people who abuse women and children and watch such abuse.

Any personal attacks you get, you bring on yourself.

This is the key question...

Do dissenting opinions warrant personal attacks?

Many people (including Izzy) seem to think they do. I think this would be a much better place if people were free to express opinions even if other people don't agree.

A public discussion forum should support diverse opinions... that is the greatest strength of public forums. There is a number of people on A2K who are trying to shut diverse opinions down.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

Quote:

Do dissenting opinions warrant personal attacks?

Many people (including Izzy) seem to think they do. I think this would be a much better place if people were free to express opinions even if other people don't agree.

A public discussion forum should support diverse opinions... that is the greatest strength of public forums. There is a number of people on A2K who are trying to shut diverse opinions down.

I think the world would be a nicer place if everyone would just get along.

But that is not the way the world works.

And Internet forums do not work in a Kumbaya way, Max. Everyone just has to grok that...and deal with as best they can.

It is never going to be pretty...especially in a forum with politics, religion, and philosophy as such dominant features.

I've tried not to attack persons rather than ideas...but when someone starts that kind of nonsense with me...I respond MAJOR LEAGUE. And I do not relent. I do not start the nonsense, but once started, I will finish it.

Most people here, even the argumentative ones, will normally allow for reasonable discussion. A2K is fine as a forum...but it is not a fun place for the faint of heart.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

This is the key question...

Do dissenting opinions warrant personal attacks?

Exactly, because as many people have pointed out I dont do personal attacks hardly ever (and when I do it is always retaliatory) , and I receive them pretty much constantly.

Quote:

Many people (including Izzy) seem to think they do.

Actually I dont think he has or think he needs a reason, he seems to use being a thug as a remedy for boredom.

Quote:

There is a number of people on A2K who are trying to shut diverse opinions down.

"trying" is not a strong enough word. They are clearly in a panic due to their personal beliefs/fantasies being challenged, and are lashing out to protect themselves from reality. I dont think that this should be encouraged.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank, I am looking at this in terms of social dynamics.

If we can come to a point where "good" behavior is supported, and "bad" behavior is discouraged, then the community here will tend toward intelligent respectful discussion between people with differing opinions.

Right now, the opposite is happening.

Look at the interactions between Izzy an Hawkeye. Hawkeye has opinions that most people here don't agree with, and expresses his ideas in ways that many people don't relate to. Ironically on the issues I agree far more with Izzy than I do with Hawkeye.. yet I am pretty sure Hawkeye is the person that I could enjoy having a beer with without being strangled.

I don't believe I have ever seen a personal attack from Hawkeye. He expresses his ideas and he defends them.

When Izzy disagrees with someone, he will come at them with every personal attack he can imagine. He has called people names (from "rapist" to "idiot") and he will bring in people's personal details. For a while, he posted his version of what happened my divorce (something that he imagined correctly would be a sensitive subject) on several unrelated threads.

Let me ask you this... why is Izzy supported and fairly well regarded, while Hawkeye gets attacked and demeaned?

It is because on Able2Know having the "correct" opinions are far more important than civility or intelligent discussion.

The way to fix this is to have a number of people who encourage good behavior and diverse opinions and stand up to uncivil behavior even from people they agree with.

4 Replies

@maxdancona,

Quote:

Let me ask you this... why is Izzy supported and fairly well regarded, while Hawkeye gets attacked and demeaned?

I do not know. Personally, I like them both. I've had great moments with both...and I've had some very, very bad moments with them both also.

Same with you. I like you...and we've had both good and bad moments.

Not sure why the fur flies when it does...but at times...it does.

If I have a knock-down with someone, I treat my next interaction with that person as though it never happened.

Some people here are treated as though they are Teflon...some as though they are sandpaper.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Hmm. I'm kind of obtuse; so I could be wrong.
I don't put anyone on ignore and I don't thumb down posts.
If someone offers me an insult, it most often is an ambidexter indictment of himself. So, I very rarely have need of the sardonic retorts, for which I am capable, though hardly well known.

Other than the few topics where my continued posting would be superfluous, I generally do not vote anything down.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Let me ask you this... why is Izzy supported and fairly well regarded, while Hawkeye gets attacked and demeaned?

I do not believe that izzythepush is well regarded or supported by anyone other than evil scumbags.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I don't believe I have ever seen a personal attack from Hawkeye.

Hours later:

hawkeye10 wrote:

I answered a direct question. Again your idiocy shines.

http://able2know.org/topic/273280-2#post-5930403

1 Reply

@Kolyo,

Kolyo wrote:

Hours later:

hawkeye10 wrote:
I answered a direct question. Again your idiocy shines.

http://able2know.org/topic/273280-2#post-5930403

Statement of fact. He should be embarrassed for himself. We should encourage this. .

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Maybe it's 'coz I'm just one helluva guy.

Or it might have something to do with Hawkeye saying that watching child pornography is a victimless crime.

Max Hawkeye and BillRM routinely trivialise rape, wildly exaggerate the incidences of false rape, and generally blame the victims of rape.

I can't speak for anyone else, but that's why I find those three disgusting.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Quote:

Or it might have something to do with Hawkeye saying that watching child pornography is a victimless crime.

Go ahead, explain how an act that only one person on the planet knows happened can create a victim. A victim is made when one person transgresses upon another, by definition, so an act that only contains one person can not possibly create a victim.

JSYK the victim was created by the person who created the child porn. That is the person who you should be looking for, you should no more condemn the person who looks at child porn than you should the person who looks at a picture of any other crime.

You disagree, that is your right, but know that I am the one with the logic on my side. That fact that you find my opinions distasteful is irrelevant, as the universe does not give a flying **** what you have the appetite for.

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

Wow...I've never followed that child porn stuff...so I was not aware of your position.

You actually think there is nothing wrong with creating a market for child porn???

Is that actually your position?

No wonder Izzy holds you in such contempt.

You ought to be holding yourself in extreme contempt for taking that position.

YES... people who view child porn should pay a price...every bit as severe as the price paid by people who make the porn. The reason the people make the porn...IS BECAUSE OF THE MARKET FOR IT!

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

You actually think there is nothing wrong with creating a market for child porn???

I think any act that does not hurt another person should be acceptable, as I believe in freedom and only wish to infringe on that freedom with good cause. A person who looks at child porn hurts no one. A person who fantasizes about ******* a kid no more hurts someone that you did the dozens of times in your life when you (if you are normal) fantasized about killing someone.

Quote:

The reason the people make the porn...IS BECAUSE OF THE MARKET FOR IT!

Incorrect. People make child porn because they like it, they want to have it, not to make money. Child porn is traded for free, not sold. In any case in American law the person who did the crime is the criminal, the one who did the wrong deed is the criminal, not the person who profited from the crime. With those what we do is claw back the profits when possible. If I buy a very cheap Rolex and the cops find out it was sold to be as the result of a theft then they come and take it back, they dont charge me with a crime because I did nothing wrong. The person who views child porn has done nothing wrong, they have hurt no one.

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

Like I said..."No wonder Izzy holds you in such contempt."

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

No one's views on anything justifies Izzy's bullying behavior. Izzy wants to be the gatekeeper, and enforcer to decide which views should be punished. Izzy does not condemn ideas... and he certainly doesn't discuss ideas. He attacks people. He lables them and then he attempts to punish them.

Izzy also constantly misstates people's views, and when someone tries to correct him, he launches a barrage of person insults.

On a public forum you can choose to engage someone on their views, or you can choose to ignore them.

The bullying behavior is part of the problem. It is an blatant attempt to prevent some ideas from being expressed... not by attacking the ideas, but by personal attacks and name calling.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

All that could be true, Max...and the Hawk's position on this particular...is reprehensible.

I agree with the Hawk on many thing...but definitely not on this one.

As for Izzy...he can be testy at times, but he also has been friendly and reasonable to me often.

A2K is not a place for people who get overly bothered by people being mean.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

bullying?

what are we 10?

it's nearly impossible to be bullied as an adult, and especially in a forum

oh no, somebody called me a name, oh no they disrespected my opinion

one only has to remember three words, water, ducks, back

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Like I said..."No wonder Izzy holds you in such contempt."

And dismissing opinions a garbage, dismissing other members as garbage, is a very common tactic around here to avoid actually needing to come up with an argument to dispute ideas that are not liked. But really I dont give a **** about your emotions, and contempt is an emotion, I care about ideas and getting to the truth. I am not impressed with people who call names as they refuse to defend their positions , with cowards who attempt to bully their way out of an intellectual jam. Have some ******* honor, either defend your position, or admit that you cant.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

All that could be true, Max...and the Hawk's position on this particular...is reprehensible.

The work is missing. Prove it.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

I agree with you about Hawkeye's position. But the position can be attacked appropriately without bullying. Either discuss the idea, or don't discuss it.

This doesn't justify Izzy's behavior. I can give you pages and pages of unprovoked personal attacks from Izzy on a variety of topics... some of them quite mean. He once went after my children.

There are three ways to deal with ideas you find reprehensible.

You can argue them, pointing out why they are reprehensible... in fact you can attack the ideas as dangerous and criminal. Arguing against ideas requires work, and it requires intellectual honesty. But it is useful.

You can ignore them. I tend to ignore ideas and discussions, rather than people. There are a number of topics here that don't interest me... I simply skip over those discussions.

Or you can launch personal attacks and get an angry mob to back you. This is Izzy's strategy and I suppose it is satisfying for him to be gatekeeper of what is acceptable to express here. I think his bar is awfully low... but who am I to question. Questioning the reasoning of an angry mob is problematic.

In my opinion, the angry mob mentality is the problem with meanness around here.

1 Reply

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