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Five Reasons No Progressive Should Support Hillary Clinton

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2015 04:48 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Anyone can run.
a Ralph Nader style campaign. To run a professional one both money and career Politician Marketing staff are required, and increasingly heavy pressure is applied to not send money too or go work for campaigns that have not been signed off on by the major party stakeholders. Hillary has been able to over the last three years convince enough of the party elite that the D's best chance is with her, and she made it clear that she does not want to get pulled to the left during a primary so that she needs to put all of that energy in repositioning herself months later so that she can try the beat the R candidate. She also thinks it is her turn, and she is not going to get screwed by an opportunistic up and comer, so she she be given the nomination (by dismissing the voters, by running her unopposed).The word has been given that no one is to challenge her, and anyone who does or who helps those who do will down the road be punished for their disobedience. The thing that Americans refuse to learn is that after Gingrich/Delay/Armey showed how it is done the party elite have increasingly been turning the screws on those under them.


Think about it....20 years ago would it ever have crossed your mind that one of the parties might offer voter only one candidate, on par with what is done in dictatorships?

Quote:
Your position on this is absurd.
More likely you are living in your fantasy world. Clueless.
Frank Apisa
 
  4  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2015 06:05 pm
@hawkeye10,
What she has done, Hawk...is to do what every politician wants to do and should do.

That is what politicians do, Hawk...maximize their chances to be the winner.

The fact that she has been able to do what she has done...indicates that she can get things done...and that is what we want and need in a leader...someone who can get things done.

You, Hawk...are the one living in a fantasy.

You, Hawk...are the one who is clueless.

But it doesn't make you a bad guy. I'd still sit and have a drink and friendly bit of banter with you.

Stay cool, man. We just disagree.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2015 06:12 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I'm nervous in that I can hardly stand her, and what if she wins. I might fizz away from cringing.
On the other hand..........

I have never voted republican, did vote for a green candidate on a ballot once (don't often see those, it was a local election).
I think I might prefer Huntsman, would have to review, but is he thinking of running? The problem with republicans I might like is the baggage, from the others.
RABEL222
 
  4  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2015 06:38 pm
@ossobuco,
If Huntsman does run it will be a sure win for the republicans. No name recognition.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2015 05:38 am
@ossobuco,


I would say that the baggage (and pressure) from "the others" makes any Republican vote a loser. A vote for a third party in many cases is, in essence, a vote for the Republicans.

I do not see Hillary as negatively as you and some of the others here do.

But make no mistake about it, whatever she does to hold the extreme conservative agenda in check will be treated like how we hold what Obama did to hold it in check...as worthless and counterproductive, because the people who want a more progressive agenda to prevail are being amazingly unrealistic about what can be done...and how soon it can be done...considering the toxic political climate in which progressives are working in America these days.

America is in ABYSMAL shape vis a vis the confrontation between forces fighting the battle of wage and income equality. The barons simply have too many of the peasants willingly supporting the barons’ right to oppress and lord over.

The only good that can come from further Republican wins is to hasten the revolution that must eventually come to clear up this clog. But the run-up to that undertaking will not be pretty. Better to at least try to make the needed changes peacefully…and that will never happen under the Republicans.

I hope you can reconcile this somehow, Ossobuco.

Sanity needs your vote.

Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2015 05:39 am
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

If Huntsman does run it will be a sure win for the republicans. No name recognition.


Obviously the name recognition is a problem...because Huntsman is a Republican...former governor of Utah.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2015 02:07 pm
@RABEL222,
I figure you're right on that.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2015 02:11 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I've long thought third parties could be of interest - at the same time they end up working as spoilers, which makes me angry; Nader, for example. Sigh.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2015 02:19 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

I've long thought third parties could be of interest - at the same time they end up working as spoilers, which makes me angry; Nader, for example. Sigh.


Yeah.

There are states so safe for a particular candidate...that a protest vote for a third party really wouldn't matter.

But if things go wrong...it could be something a voter could regret for a long time.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2015 02:58 pm
Hillary has the ability and the opportunity to be a great president. I hope she makes the right moves to get elected and then acts a bit more liberal than most of us expect (I have never liked the "progressive" label).
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2015 03:05 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:

This says a lot aboutsome of my fears:

Hillary Clinton's suffocating presence/The Economist
Inevitable?

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/02/2016-democratic-primaries


It's also worth noting that the Democrats' electoral advantage at the presidential level is not a sure thing. It materialises only if the party machine succeeds in getting young, poor and minority voters to the polls. Mr Obama beat Mrs Clinton from her left, and went on to beat John McCain by exciting sometimes tough-to-reach Democratic constituencies. Mrs Clinton's gender is certainly a source of excitement, but her presidency would mark a shift to the right for Democrats at a time when the party's energy is coming from the left. A competitive primary pitting Mrs Clinton against an attractive progressive rising star or two would test whether she remains capable of generating real enthusiasm across the party's varied base. It seems like a test worth running.

Democrats ought to worry at least a little about the possibility that Hillary Clinton has become the contemporary Democratic version of Bob Dole in 1996: an elder statesman, a presumed nominee, universally admired and, when it really counted, insufficiently voted for.



that pretty much covers it off. too old and too far to the right to excite liberals - and the Democrats do have to think very seriously about who they are going to get out to vote
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2015 03:07 pm
@Kolyo,
Kolyo wrote:

I will certainly be voting for Hillary,
although having looked up Huntsman, I don't think he's half bad.
Mindblowingly progressive for a Republican.


whoever mentioned Huntsman just a page or so back, this is part of where he came into the discussion

the progressive Republican

_____


what would actual liberal-minded voters do if the choices were a liberal Republican or a right-of-centre Democrat ?
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2015 03:14 pm
@ossobuco,
Wait a minute, I see I misunderstood your thinking earlier.
Huntsman, as Frank mentions, is a republican. If he actually won the republican nomination, he might win the prize, what with crossover votes from democrats and independents. I would be surprised, though, if he does enter the race, and would actually win the nomination.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2015 03:16 pm
@ehBeth,
Yeah, I agree.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2015 03:16 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

I absolutely will never vote for any Republican.


not even Huntsman?

I've been reading about him for a while. Definitely someone who seems able to reconsider earlier views and has taken some fairly liberal stands on social issues. Definitely seemed to have had a good impact on Utah's economy. Who knows if any of that would translate to a national stage but he looks more liberal than some of the Democratic options wandering around at the edge of the stage.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2015 03:18 pm
@korkamann,
korkamann wrote:

Elizabeth Warren has said she would not run. Yet, there is movement to draft Warren.


Warren v Huntsman would be a great result for the US IMNSHO
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2015 03:18 pm
@ehBeth,
I looked him up last time he was running and liked a lot but not all of his views; I forget what I didn't like, at this point. I'll worry about it if he runs..
It is possible I'd vote for him, which would be a real first. But, like I said, there's the baggage of other republicans he'd have as part of his administration.

I've used this analogy before. In hematology, if you see a blast cell on a regular cbc smear, you figure out what is happening by noticing "the company it keeps".
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2015 03:22 pm
@ossobuco,
I don't think I've ever experienced a candidate that I was 100% for.

It's usually something like 50%, 25% not too bad, 25% I can deal with or will choose to ignore so I can actually for anybody.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2015 03:24 pm
@ehBeth,
I don't worry about it, unless he switches parties. No self respecting teabagger will ever let Huntsman get the nod.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2015 03:27 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
But, like I said, there's the baggage of other republicans he'd have as part of his administration.


that's where (I think) it gets interesting. There was a big split with Romney due to internal family politics. He's nowhere near the 'tea party' group on social issues. He'd have to search out some new faces/minds to join him.

this ... really caught my ear at the time

Quote:
A month after dropping out of the race, Huntsman offered the opinion that there was a need for a third party in America. In an appearance on the MSNBC talk show Morning Joe on February 23, 2012, Huntsman said that a third party would be a healthy development in the presidential election process.

I think we’re going to have problems politically until we get some sort of third party movement or some voice out there that can put forth new ideas. Someone’s going to step up at some point and say we’ve had enough of this. The real issues are not being addressed and it’s time that we put forward an alternative vision, a bold thinking. We might not win, but we can certainly influence the debate.

Huntsman said he was not throwing his own hat in the ring as a third party presidential candidate in 2012.[76]

The Republican National Committee reacted by withdrawing an invitation for Huntsman to appear as a speaker at a Republican fundraiser in Palm Beach, Florida, in early March.[77] In early July, Huntsman announced that he would not be attending the 2012 Republican National Convention for the first time since he attended as a Reagan delegate in 1984. Huntsman issued a statement chiding the Republican Party for what he perceived as its failures to focus on the daunting socio-economic issues facing America.

I will not be attending this year's convention, nor any Republican convention in the future until the party focuses on a bigger, bolder, more confident future for the United States — a future based on problem solving, inclusiveness, and a willingness to address the trust deficit, which is every bit as corrosive as our fiscal and economic deficits.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Huntsman,_Jr.


still a bit old for my liking (born 1960) but def an improvement on Ms. Clinton
 

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