Water Softeners - What are the differences in brands?

justalurker wrote:

In the long run, a twin resin tank softener should get longer resin life than a single resin tank softener because they regenerate with soft water brine AND soft water rinses.

The fact is that hardness, regardless of the amount in the water, does not harm resin in any way, and neither does regenerating resin with hard water. That does not negatively effect the operation of a softener, nor does it use salt or otherwise effect the salt efficiency of a softener.

Brine make up with softened water keeps the salt tank cleaner, it does not effect the resin or the salt efficiency in any way.

_________________
Gary Slusser
21 yrs in water treatment and well pumps, 12 yrs on the 'net helping people help themselves.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

The fact is that hardness, regardless of the amount in the water, does not harm resin in any way, and neither does regenerating resin with hard water.

You have made this statement before and been corrected.

According to a Purolite (resin manufacturer) employee... regenerating resin with soft water (as with a twin resin tank softener) does not decrease the hardness removal capacity of a volume of resin while regenerating resin with hard water (as with a single resin tank softener) does decrease the hardness removal capacity of that same volume of resin.

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Yeah you claim that he has also said (privately) that upflow is more efficient than downflow regeneration and yet when I have asked him in their public forum (which is down now), he said that as long as the downflow two tank and upflow twin tank softeners have the same salt dose setting and the same volume and type of resin, there is no difference in the capacity or salt efficiency. Yet you keep telling people that upflow is more efficient.

Note that the above two tank softener regenerates with hard water and the twin would use softened water to regenerate and use soft water brine make up. The two tank could have soft water brine make up.

Also, the spec sheets for Purolite C-100 resin in any of its various versions, do not support your claim.

To prove your claim, show us figures of higher K of capacity or higher per lb of salt per cuft of resin salt efficiency when regenerating with softened water compared to hard water regeneration.

Otherwise your claim is unproven and nothing more than hype of twin tank softeners; as he said in their forum when I asked about it.

Although I doubt you know what I'm talking about... include the percentage of brine strength in the discharge water of both types of the two differently regenerated softeners. Otherwise you're blowin' smoke.

Also, you are a big fan of Fleck controls and upflow/counter-current regeneration saying it is more efficient than downflow/co-current regeneration. It sounds as if you are not aware that NONE of Fleck's MANY residential twin tank type control valves have the option of upflow/counter-current brining. That kinda says upflow may not be as good or as important as you mistakenly think it is. Or I could say it means that compared to downflow there is no difference.

While we are into twin tank softeners, what do you think of my dual/twin softeners using Clack valves? That is head'n shoulders better in all ways than any twin tank softener on the market; and less expensive to purchase and maintain. I can go up or downflow, immediate or delayed regenerated (with softened water), with soft water brining and service water through both at once. You could get your 1.5 cuft Clack out of door stop storage and add another and the controller and ya got better than a used or new Kinetico!

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I prefer the 1" 2510 SE Residential Control Valve

* Fully adjustable 5-cycle top mount control delivers controlled upflow backwash, downflow brining and slow rinse, rapid rinse, brine refill and downflow service.

* Time-tested hydraulically balanced piston, seal and spacer concept to control service flow and regeneration

* Non-corrosive, high-tech material construction

* Excellent flow rates - 19 GPM continuous, 24 GPM peak

* Backwash capacity handles tanks up to 16" in diameter for softener application, 16" in diameter for filter applications

* Electronic controls with Meter initiated softener regeneration.

I have installed the Fleck 2510 SE by the hundreds and I have had ZERO problems.
My clients are super happy with the 2510 SE Cool

http://www.athenswater.com/images/vinnings_after.jpg

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Gary Slusser wrote:

Also, the spec sheets for Purolite C-100 resin in any of its various versions, do not support your claim.

Not my claim... information offered by a Purolite rep. You know Purolite? The people who make resin.

Gary Slusser wrote:

Otherwise your claim is unproven and nothing more than hype of twin tank softeners; as he said in their forum when I asked about it.

That's not what he said... to remind you again, some more, for the umpteenth time click here for the discussion

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Gary Slusser wrote:

Also, the spec sheets for Purolite C-100 resin in any of its various versions, do not support your claim.

justalurker wrote:

Not my claim... information offered by a Purolite rep. You know Purolite? The people who make resin.

It certainly is your claim, for the umpteenth time.

You should note he refused to say how much capacity or say how you calculate it, and if you can't calculate it, it doesn't exist but, that is not the post where he said what I said he said, try again; Andy started the thread.

Here is more on the subject that you brought up.
click here for the discussion.

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I get it now. H20_MAN and justalurker = local installers. Gary Slusser = online seller. Not gonna get along...protecting their own interests.

I talked to the local guy, the culligan, he's the only game in town and he knows it. I know when I'm getting bent over. Hence, I'm looking online DIY.

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alchemize wrote:

I get it now. H20_MAN and justalurker = local installers. Gary Slusser = online seller. Not gonna get along...protecting their own interests.

No, you don't get it...

H2O_Man = water treatment professional who services what he sells

justalurker = one who has experienced the worst in water treatment scammers from both local dealer (stealer) and Slusser online and whose only gain is helping others to not make the same water treatment mistakes he did

Gary Slusser = fast buck huckster who keyboards for dollars on other people's forums... a revenue driven poster

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Gary Slusser wrote:

It certainly is your claim, for the umpteenth time.

Your question was answered in this thread click here for resin discussion and then you were dismissed. You give everyone a warm and cuddly feeling.

In a discussion regarding resin I'll go with the resin manufacturer's rep who is a certified water specialist and knows what he is talking about.

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justalurker wrote:

alchemize wrote:
I get it now. H20_MAN and justalurker = local installers. Gary Slusser = online seller. Not gonna get along...protecting their own interests.

No, you don't get it...

H2O_Man = water treatment professional who services what he sells

justalurker = one who has experienced the worst in water treatment scammers from both local dealer (stealer) and Slusser online and whose only gain is helping others to not make the same water treatment mistakes he did

Gary Slusser = fast buck huckster who keyboards for dollars on other people's forums... a revenue driven poster

I see. Since you're an independent party, I'd love to get some referrals for other online dealers.

My local choices are culligan or ecowater, both of which are unacceptable.

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alchemize wrote:

I get it now. H20_MAN and justalurker = local installers. Gary Slusser = online seller. Not gonna get along...protecting their own interests.

That's about it with the exception of Justalurker being an installer. He is a customer of mine that screwed up my forum in Aug 2005 and follows me around attempting to prevent people from buying from me. Here's what he used to say before our disagreement.

SteveS
Guest

PostPosted: 11 Nov 2004 12:18 am Post subject: Been right where you are now ... Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Buy the Clack WS-1. Simple design with well done electronics, easier to program, more efficient use of salt, EASY to repair if you're a DIYer AND in the unlikely event that Gary retires ... Laughing ... you can call Clack and they'll talk to you.

Both the Fleck valves you mentioned are based on old designs (that have proven reliable) BUT require special tools to repair. The Clack doesn't require special tools and IMO is so simple and well designed that it may not require any service for many years.

Applying advances in technology from the past 30 years to the Clack design is not a liability as it seems so well thought out. I particulary like the bypass and inlet connection design that requies your hands as the only tool. No overtightening or cracking noryl. I highly recommend the 90 degree elbows and the Falcon Stainless flex connectors ... too EZ, too reliable, and VERY reasonably priced.

I was in the same boat (water?) as you and decided on the Clack. It has been running flawlessly for months now. Super quiet while regenerating and amazingly efficient use of salt. Adapative programming fine tunes the reserve softening capacity and in the unlikely event it needs repair I can help myself and not have to rely on the local rip-offs who wanted to sell me an inferior softener for 3-4 times the price.

alchemize wrote:

I talked to the local guy, the culligan, he's the only game in town and he knows it. I know when I'm getting bent over. Hence, I'm looking online DIY.

Good choice, even if you don't buy from me.

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You should look for a local independent H2O specialist that installs and services what he sells.

Good luck!

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alchemize wrote:

I see. Since you're an independent party, I'd love to get some referrals for other online dealers.

There are online sellers who I have referred hundreds of customers to that do have ethics, morals and will sell you what you need with out the colonoscopy our resident forum softener huckster puts you through before and after the sale.

Unfortunately, the forum rules prohibit those type of referrals on the forum and PM privilages are very limited here although Slusser is permitted to keyboard for dollars here on the forum... double standard?

If you post your email I'll be happy to provide you with good places to start shopping.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

PostPosted: 11 Nov 2004

Note the date... that was the date of the "honeymoon".

When I woke up and saw the true colors of who I had done business with I chewed off my arm and ran as fast as I could.

They all look great on their web site (and in a dark bar after too many beers). It's only when the order arrives and it's not what you ordered and he won't make it right that you scream and run.

One of the things that supposedly separates humans from other life on this planet is that we (are supposed to) posses the ability to learn from our mistakes. Some of us do and some of us don't and some continue to prey on those who don't.

That poster loves to drag out old posts from years back and refer to them out of context. He can't support his statements with facts so he tries with misquotes and out of context posts.

Long story short... people will get service if they buy locally. They will pay more and they will get more. If you don't think service is important then wait till you come home and find water running all over the floor at 60psi because the factory softener bypass leaks, but this online seller told you NOT to install or to remove a separate 3 ball valve bypass that was already there and would be just what you need in that emergency. Wait till you have to live with your 20+ grain hard water for a few days waiting for a part that may or may not be what you need to repair your softener.

Buying online has its hazards and those hazards are hard to see until some time after you click "buy now" and then you are screwed with little recourse.

There are good and bad dealers (everywhere) selling everything, but one continues to illustrate here on the forum how you'll be treated after the sale. As his customer I say buying from any other dealer (anywhere) is a better move. That it not my opinion... it is my experience as his customer.

In real estate it's location, location, location. In water treatment it's dealer, dealer, dealer.

BTW, shortly after that post in 2004 I was taught how to repair Fleck valves WITHOUT the special tools and it is easy. I've helped quite a number of people in the area that had minor problems with 20 or so year old Fleck control valves. That skill is shared by H2O_MAN and many other professional Fleck techs but Gary is tool challenged so for him the tools are absolutely necessary.

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justalurker wrote:

alchemize wrote:
I see. Since you're an independent party, I'd love to get some referrals for other online dealers.

There are online sellers who I have referred hundreds of customers to that do have ethics, morals and will sell you what you need with out the colonoscopy our resident forum softener huckster puts you through before and after the sale.

Unfortunately, the forum rules prohibit those type of referrals on the forum and PM privilages are very limited here although Slusser is permitted to keyboard for dollars here on the forum... double standard?

If you post your email I'll be happy to provide you with good places to start shopping.

Fair enough!

alchemize AT gmail DOT com

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Just realize that he has never bought anything from them, while I have helped many of their customers program their control valves because the sellers tell them to use the default programming. And none of them get into how to correctly size a softener.

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justalurker wrote:

That's not what he said... to remind you again, some more, for the umpteenth time click here for the discussion

Try this link, my emphasis added. Your Purolite guy hasn't responded, and I doubt he will click here for the discussion. I have replied to him in the thread in an attempt to cut through the 'marketing' type comments in his reply.

Gary,

Since all our softeners employ soft water regeneration along with counter-current regeneration, it would be difficult to separate out the direct benefit of soft water on salt efficiency. Frankly, we've probably never tried to test one without the other.

However, here is what I presume to be the case: I don't think soft water on its own affects efficiency much. From a chemical engineering / mass transfer perspective, a few hundred mg/l of hardness will not show up as a factor in any driving forces related to the exchange of ions on the functional groups during regeneration. Regenerating with soft water does, however, significantly affect the effluent quality when the resin is back in service. There has been a lot of work demonstrating the improvement in quality when regenerating with treated water, whether it is soft, decationized or deionized water. Obviously there are several factors that affect the effluent hardness from a softener, but generically I would say treated water (soft) would improve the effluent quality by an order of magnitude. Again, this is difficult for us to isolate from the benefits provided by counter-current regeneration with a strong-acid resin.

When it comes to our equipment, salt efficiency improvements come from a combination of regenerating only when necessary (regardless of time-of-day), counter-current regeneration, packed resin beds and using treated water; probably in that order of importance.

A side benefit of soft water regeneration, at least with our systems, is that the entire control valve operates on treated water which extends the life of the equipment.

Dave Chew

Director - Marketing & Technical Service

Kinetico Incorporated

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Gary Slusser wrote:

justalurker wrote:
That's not what he said... to remind you again, some more, for the umpteenth time click here for the discussion

Try this link, my emphasis added. Your Purolite guy hasn't responded, and I doubt he will...

I have no Purolite guy. I politely asked a question of a Purolite representative and he responded with an answer.

In a previous thread on that forum (click here for that thread) your question was graciously answered but you didn't like the answer and the poster stopped responding. Why would he respond again to the same question from the same poster on the same forum?

You said "I am told that softeners regenerated with softened water have a higher salt efficiency than a softener regenerating with hard water. I am also told the resin will last longer if regenerated with softened water. I do not agree with either claim".

I said "regenerating resin with soft water (as with a twin resin tank softener) does not decrease the hardness removal capacity of a volume of resin while regenerating resin with hard water (as with a single resin tank softener) does decrease the hardness removal capacity of that same volume of resin".

There is a significant difference between the statements "higher salt efficiency" and "does not decrease hardness removal capacity".

Your inability to comprehend the difference in those two statements is the reason you don't understand what I posted. You are commenting on what you think I posted instead of what I actually did post.

Calcium ions will be exchanged with sodium ions as the hard water flows though the resin during the stages of regeneration. The number of calcium ions exchanged during regeneration with hard water will reduce the hardness removal capacity of that resin by that amount of exchanged ions. Regenerating resin with hard water reduces the hardness removal capacity.

Regenerating with soft water there will be no calcium ions exchanged so the hardness removal capacity of the resin IS NOT REDUCED.

The volume of the exchanged ions regenerating with hard water becomes more significant if there is iron and manganese in the hard water and the hardness removal capacity of the resin will be reduced proportionately to the hardness, iron, and manganese in the hard water being used to regenerate the resin.

You often misquote, misread, quote out of context, paraphrase and/or just plain manipulate other people's comments to pick a fight regardless of the truth and accuracy of the facts stated.

As I've said before, if a question about resin I'll believe the company that manufactures resin and not someone that drop-ships it.

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A twin tank softener's In Service tank uses capacity to remove the hardness etc. in the raw water, then the Standby tank goes into Service and regenerates that tank. That DECREASES the hardness removal capacity of the softener and the gallons used to regenerate the out of Service tank are subtracted from the meter setting or, we could say that the capacity used is subtracted from the overall capacity of the softener. You seem to be missing that fact but...

A single resin tank softener uses hard water to regenerate itself and the same amount of salt used by the twin tank creates the same K of capacity as the twin tank but, there is no DECREASE in the capacity of the single tank based on the gallons used to regenerate it. You set the meter using all of the capacity minus a days reserve unless you have a variable reserve type control valve. You do not DECREASE the gallons between regenerations as you do with a twin tank.

If you disagree, show me the math that supports your statement that regenerating with hard water DECREASES the single tank's capacity.

BTW, salt efficiency is the grains/pound of salt used to create the K of capacity, so if there is no decrease in capacity, the salt efficiency of the softener will be increased.

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Gary, you continue to argue an entirely different point than I originally posted.

I made my point. I explained it you as simply as I could. You still don't understand the point I originally made let alone the subsequent explanations I've given you.

I'll continue to believe the Purolite rep and, in addition, the Kinetico factory tech that has weighed in on the pro forum.

You're more interested in the fight than the facts.

We can lead a horse to water but we can't make him think Rolling Eyes

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