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Water Softeners - What are the differences in brands?

 
 
tnynyn
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2008 04:01 pm
I signed up just to say this is a very good thread. I am in the market for a water softener and have no clue when it comes to water quality. Luckily, I stumbled on this thread before I was about to buy a Pelican system for $1000+ Shocked I read all 28 pages and found a lot of useful information. I came out to the conclusion that the best water softener to get is either one with a Fleck or Clack WS-1 valve. I dont know much about my water quality but from the reports HERE I have about 18 GPG of hardness. This will be for a 4 people 2-story home with 3 1/2 bathrooms. I searched around and the best price I found for the Fleck 7000SE 48k on demand softener is about 100$ cheaper than the Clack WS-1 48k version. Which one should I go with? Any suggestions?
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2008 04:32 pm
Welcome to A2K tnynyn !! Very Happy

Sit back and wait for the replies ~ this should be fun.
0 Replies
 
justalurker
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2008 05:45 pm
tnynyn,

Fleck or Clack... if you've read the threads in this forum you've already decided. Either is superior to any pre-built softener from a big box store.

If you think that a 48k softener is the correct size for your application and the deciding factor is the lowest price and you found the lowest price what are you waiting for?

If you want a correctly sized softener installed with service after the sale and proper setup then you've got more shopping to do.
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2008 07:19 pm
tnynyn wrote:
I signed up just to say this is a very good thread. I am in the market for a water softener and have no clue when it comes to water quality. Luckily, I stumbled on this thread before I was about to buy a Pelican system for $1000+

Good for you. They are overpriced and don't work anyhow.

tnynyn wrote:
I read all 28 pages and found a lot of useful information. I came out to the conclusion that the best water softener to get is either one with a Fleck or Clack WS-1 valve. I have about 18 GPG of hardness. This will be for a 4 people 2-story home with 3 1/2 bathrooms.

What do you like about each of those two control valves?

You need to use 22 gpg, not 18. And depending on the number of bathrooms and type of fixtures, a "48K" may be too small.

tnynyn wrote:
Which one should I go with?

I quit selling the 7000 in early 2006 because of problems with them and the additional water use their variable brining causes.
0 Replies
 
tnynyn
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2008 10:04 pm
Thanks for the replies and advice everyone. My house is being rebuilt, so I need to water softner ordered by this weekend. Question is will 48k be enough?

I mis-calculated, there will be about 6-7 people living in my home.

5 full bathrooms - one w/ a jacuzzi
2 kitchen sink
1 dishwasher
1 washing machine / dryer

We generally dont use alot of water since no one is home until late afternoon
4-5PM.

I read on a site tha 48k will serve a home with 7-8 peope with 11-20 grains per gallon hardness. So would 48k be just about right for my home? Seems the next biggest is 64k. I may just go with Clack since it seems to be more reliable(?) Also whats the difference between Clack WS1 and the WS1.25 models? The price difference is ~$40 so if the WS1.25 I might as well go with that. Most likely I will be ordering from http://www.thirdcoastwater.com since their price is pretty good for the 48k/64k clack softeners
0 Replies
 
justalurker
 
  1  
Thu 8 May, 2008 10:25 pm
tnynyn wrote:

I mis-calculated, there will be about 6-7 people living in my home.

5 full bathrooms - one w/ a jacuzzi
2 kitchen sink
1 dishwasher
1 washing machine / dryer


You are off in sizing your softener.

tnynyn wrote:
I may just go with Clack since it seems to be more reliable(?)


More reliable? Hmm...

Fleck = decades and decades and decades and decades of proven field service and outsells ALL other control valves added together worldwide.

Clack = 8 years in the field
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Fri 9 May, 2008 10:40 am
tnynyn wrote:
My house is being rebuilt, so I need to water softner ordered by this weekend. Question is will 48k be enough?

I mis-calculated, there will be about 6-7 people living in my home.

5 full bathrooms - one w/ a jacuzzi
2 kitchen sink
1 dishwasher
1 washing machine / dryer

We generally dont use alot of water since no one is home until late afternoon
4-5PM.

I read on a site tha 48k will serve a home with 7-8 peope with 11-20 grains per gallon hardness. So would 48k be just about right for my home?

That will get you terrible salt efficiency because you would be using the maximum capacity and it would be regenerating every 4 days on average so water use would be higher also.

tnynyn wrote:
Seems the next biggest is 64k. I may just go with Clack since it seems to be more reliable(?) Also whats the difference between Clack WS1 and the WS1.25 models? The price difference is ~$40 so if the WS1.25 I might as well go with that. Most likely I will be ordering from http://www.thirdcoastwater.com since their price is pretty good for the 48k/64k clack softeners

I have sold Fleck valves for 21 years and Clack for over 4 years and I have 1000+ of them out and have had only 22 problems. Had I sold that many Fleck valves, I would have expected 100+ problems by now. So I say the Clack is more reliable. And it should be because 3 ex-Fleck engineers with 72 years experience at Fleck designed the Clack valves.

The WS-1.25 = inches; a 1.25" valve, the same as the 7000. You don't need one because of the high flow rates of the Clack WS-1. It can service from 6"-21" tanks; that's a 7.5 cuft softener. But you do need a larger than "64k" softener. BTW, you should be ordering from me.

You forgot to count 2.5 bathrooms and 2-3 people... and maybe a second kitchen!

After sizing the capacity for salt and water efficiency, the key to sizing a softener correctly is the peak demand flow rate of the building.

The softener or any filter must be sized to be able to treat higher gpm than the building's peak demand gpm. That is based on actually how much water will be used by the number of people and type of fixtures. Get that wrong and the softener or filter will never work right.

It's called the SFR of the softener. There are two of them, you want the constant SFR gpm, not peak. You need to learn more about this before you buy anything from anyone. You could visit my site to do that, there is a lot of free no obligation information there. You can do that by clicking the WWW button below.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Fri 9 May, 2008 10:48 am
Fleck 2510SE
I have put hundreds of digital Fleck 2510SE control valves into service over the last few years.

My experience:

ZERO problems!
100% HAPPY customers!
0 Replies
 
tnynyn
 
  1  
Fri 9 May, 2008 03:02 pm
I used Gary's website for some calculations, from the sizing chart looks like I used the fixture count and have a total of 30GPM Peak so minimum SFR I need is 30 GPM? ( I was a little more generous when adding fixtures, extra kitchen sink, lavatory, toilet, shower) and from the calculator my total grain of capacity is just a little under 89k (so a 90k+ a 4.5cu ft size softner is what I need)

Did I get this right? This is a very tough decision on what valve to get, but in the end, I'm sure either one I end up will be more reliable then others (I narrowed it to Clack WS1 or Fleck 2510SE from the advice of everyone here)
0 Replies
 
justalurker
 
  1  
Fri 9 May, 2008 05:38 pm
tnynyn,

What diameter plumbing (3/4", 1", 1.5") is feeding your softener location.

You would be wise to do more shopping.
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Fri 9 May, 2008 10:15 pm
tnynyn wrote:
I used Gary's website for some calculations, from the sizing chart looks like I used the fixture count and have a total of 30GPM Peak so minimum SFR I need is 30 GPM? ( I was a little more generous when adding fixtures, extra kitchen sink, lavatory, toilet, shower) and from the calculator my total grain of capacity is just a little under 89k (so a 90k+ a 4.5cu ft size softner is what I need)

I don't suggest using the WFUC method because the numbers from each code vary so widely. Usually the lowest SFR gpm will be half the highest gpm, and the other two codes will fall bgetween those two; for the same house... So I do not size using the codes, I need to speak to the person to come up with the SFR they need.

Also, I come up with less than 89K, how many people and what number of gallons per person did you use?
tnynyn wrote:
This is a very tough decision on what valve to get, but in the end, I'm sure either one I end up will be more reliable then others (I narrowed it to Clack WS1 or Fleck 2510SE from the advice of everyone here)

Actually if you compare the features of the Clack WS-1 to a 2510, in any of its versions, it is an unfair comparison because the 2510 does not have many of the features the Clack WS-1 has. One of those features is recording the max peak flow rate run through the Clack WS-1 since it was put in service. In over a 1000 sales, I haven't missed the correct SFR yet.
0 Replies
 
tnynyn
 
  1  
Sun 11 May, 2008 03:58 pm
Just wanted to say everyone has been very helpful and thank you guys very much for all the info and help you've given me.

As far as plumbing size, I believe it will be 3/4 but I will confirm it later tonight.

There will be a total of 7 people living in the house and number of gallons per person will be approx 70 (being generous on the shower time ~20min per person)
0 Replies
 
justalurker
 
  1  
Sun 11 May, 2008 06:05 pm
tnynyn wrote:
As far as plumbing size, I believe it will be 3/4 but I will confirm it later tonight.


It'll be important to find out because, IIRC, the flow rate from a 100' of 3/4" pipe at 50 psi is 17.5 gpm. That's far short of the 30gpm you calculated.
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Mon 12 May, 2008 08:16 am
tnynyn wrote:
As far as plumbing size, I believe it will be 3/4 but I will confirm it later tonight.

There will be a total of 7 people living in the house and number of gallons per person will be approx 70 (being generous on the shower time ~20min per person)

You are going to have water conservation fixtures, so you should use 60 gals/person/day. I'd have to talk to you to give you the SFR/size of the softener.
0 Replies
 
tnynyn
 
  1  
Mon 12 May, 2008 08:57 am
Sorry, I made a mistake again. The plumbing will be 1" (it was 3/4, but I talked to the construction people and told them to change it to 1")

Also, I did the calculations by water conservation fixtures based in our current residence since it is built by the same people building my new home) Shower heads are 2.5gpm and lavatories are 2.15 gpm, while toilets are low flows..
0 Replies
 
alchemize
 
  1  
Thu 15 May, 2008 07:40 am
Hi all,

I haven't read all 30 pages of this thread, but enough here and everywhere that I'm semi-informed (dangerous?).

Situation:
Closing on a house soon, have had the water tested by an independent lab. Well water in a semi-rural area.

Hardness came back 228 mg/l (about 13g/gal I believe). No issues with iron, PH. Coliform came back high (house hasn't really been used for a year+), well has been shocked and will be retested

There's a 20+ year old disconnected culligan unit there, and the piping already has a bypass built in, valve cutoffs ready to go...1" pipe coming from the well.

Called a Culligan guy who walked me through the tests and looked at the setup. After hearing his silly prices (install $300? Fill with salt $85? Unit $1,350 for a single tank?) I knew I was getting snowed and started researching on the internet.

So I've decided with 4 kids and lots of water usage, I think a dual tank unit is my best option. Here's the unit I'm leaning towards:

Fleck 9100 SE dual tank
$899 shipping included, and I'm pretty sure I can install this myself without any plumbing modifications required.

Any thoughts or considerations?
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Thu 15 May, 2008 09:27 am
alchemize wrote:
Situation:
Closing on a house soon, have had the water tested by an independent lab. Well water in a semi-rural area.

Hardness came back 228 mg/l (about 13g/gal I believe). No issues with iron, PH. Coliform came back high (house hasn't really been used for a year+), well has been shocked and will be retested

There's a 20+ year old disconnected culligan unit there, and the piping already has a bypass built in, valve cutoffs ready to go...1" pipe coming from the well.

Called a Culligan guy who walked me through the tests and looked at the setup. After hearing his silly prices (install $300? Fill with salt $85? Unit $1,350 for a single tank?) I knew I was getting snowed and started researching on the internet.

So I've decided with 4 kids and lots of water usage, I think a dual tank unit is my best option. Any thoughts or considerations?

Shocking a well is at best a temporary 'fix' for a Coliform bacteria contamination. And unless you do frequent tests for Coliform, you should not depend on shocking. Water sitting unused has to have had Coliform added to it somehow or it wouldn't be present no matter how long the water was not used. So once a well shows the presence of Coliform, it usually shows up again in a few days, weeks or months because it comes and goes over time due to precipitation levels etc.. I would use some type of disinfection equipment.

You should not reuse the by pass valve, cut it out, all new softeners should come with their own newly designed by pass valve.

Why do you think you want a twin tank type softener? The number of people in the house has nothing to do with needing a twin tank softener. Do you have people up all night doing laundry, taking showers etc.? If not, you don't need the added expense etc. of a twin tank, but I like selling them.
0 Replies
 
alchemize
 
  1  
Thu 15 May, 2008 10:42 am
Gary Slusser wrote:
alchemize wrote:
Situation:
Closing on a house soon, have had the water tested by an independent lab. Well water in a semi-rural area.

Hardness came back 228 mg/l (about 13g/gal I believe). No issues with iron, PH. Coliform came back high (house hasn't really been used for a year+), well has been shocked and will be retested

There's a 20+ year old disconnected culligan unit there, and the piping already has a bypass built in, valve cutoffs ready to go...1" pipe coming from the well.

Called a Culligan guy who walked me through the tests and looked at the setup. After hearing his silly prices (install $300? Fill with salt $85? Unit $1,350 for a single tank?) I knew I was getting snowed and started researching on the internet.

So I've decided with 4 kids and lots of water usage, I think a dual tank unit is my best option. Any thoughts or considerations?

Shocking a well is at best a temporary 'fix' for a Coliform bacteria contamination. And unless you do frequent tests for Coliform, you should not depend on shocking. Water sitting unused has to have had Coliform added to it somehow or it wouldn't be present no matter how long the water was not used. So once a well shows the presence of Coliform, it usually shows up again in a few days, weeks or months because it comes and goes over time due to precipitation levels etc.. I would use some type of disinfection equipment.

You should not reuse the by pass valve, cut it out, all new softeners should come with their own newly designed by pass valve.

Why do you think you want a twin tank type softener? The number of people in the house has nothing to do with needing a twin tank softener. Do you have people up all night doing laundry, taking showers etc.? If not, you don't need the added expense etc. of a twin tank, but I like selling them.

Gary,

Culligan also quoted me a UV system for only another 2 grand Smile That I need to do more research on...

I like the premise of a twin-tank softener as yes, I do run laundry at night, or shower late, or have kiddies get up and go pee. And I like the idea of lower salt usage, and "never running out". I recognize I'm paying a premium but after the initial quote from Culligan it seems like quite a bargain! Is there ongoing added expense other than the up-front? Won't some of that be recovered by lower salt or potassium chloride usage?

As far as the valve, I probably described it wrong. There is plumbing already in place ready to be connected to a softener, one heads to the water heater and one heads to the cold water supply, with connectors and cut-off valves already installed. Then there is piping that by-passes that - leading outside and to the barn. Does that make sense?

Thanks so much for your feedback, I love learning these kinds things.
0 Replies
 
justalurker
 
  1  
Thu 15 May, 2008 02:07 pm
alchemize wrote:

I like the premise of a twin-tank softener as yes, I do run laundry at night, or shower late, or have kiddies get up and go pee. And I like the idea of lower salt usage, and "never running out". I recognize I'm paying a premium but after the initial quote from Culligan it seems like quite a bargain!


Paying for what you get isn't paying a premium... it's getting a dollar's worth for a dollar. There are many people enjoying soft water 24/7 and never running out after they were told by some they didn't need soft water 24/7. They knew what they wanted, made an informed decision, and got what they wanted.

In the long run, a twin resin tank softener should get longer resin life than a single resin tank softener because they regenerate with soft water brine AND soft water rinses. Single resin tank softeners regenerating with hard water rinses is like final rinsing clothes in a washer with dirty water.

You're on the right track... shop for quality hardware and a water treatment professional who stands behind what they sell, before and after the sale, and in the same room with what they sold you.
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Thu 15 May, 2008 06:28 pm
alchemize wrote:
Gary, Culligan also quoted me a UV system for only another 2 grand Smile That I need to do more research on...

Yes you do need to do more research. I sell UV lights, and I have sold hundreds over the years and some rather large ones, none have come close to $2K.

alchemize wrote:
I like the premise of a twin-tank softener as yes, I do run laundry at night, or shower late, or have kiddies get up and go pee. And I like the idea of lower salt usage, and "never running out". I recognize I'm paying a premium but after the initial quote from Culligan it seems like quite a bargain! Is there ongoing added expense other than the up-front? Won't some of that be recovered by lower salt or potassium chloride usage?

Then I suggest you check out my twin tank models; you'll love the prices. They use Fleck control valves with the exception of a dual Clack (not on my web site) which has many advantages over Fleck or Kinetico twins. And with the Clack I can go upflow or downflow but there is no advantage to upflow if the softener is correctly sized. Again, no, there is no salt savings using a twin tank type softener.

Also, Culligan uses a Fleck valve on their twin tank softeners. With most twin tank type softeners, you get water through only one tank at a time and when one tank is being regenerated, you share its water flow to drain with your shower or any other water use in the house. The Clack I mention and a model of Kinetico, gives you water through both tanks at once until one is regenerated.

To use a regular twin, both tanks must be the correct size to provide the needed SFR gpm.

As to "never running out", a correctly sized two tank type softener rarely to never runs out of capacity before regeneration; especially a Clack WS-1 with its variable reserve feature. Also, a correctly sized softener regenerates once every 8 nights, so water use would have to be between 2 AM and 3:15 AM that night to cause any problem.

alchemize wrote:
As far as the valve, I probably described it wrong. There is plumbing already in place ready to be connected to a softener, one heads to the water heater and one heads to the cold water supply, with connectors and cut-off valves already installed. Then there is piping that by-passes that - leading outside and to the barn. Does that make sense?

I've seen thousands of old installations so yes, I understand but... you cut out back to the inlet and outlet lines and replumb to the new by pass valve. The line to the barn has to tee off the inlet line to the softener.

alchemize wrote:
Thanks so much for your feedback, I love learning these kinds things.

You're welcome. For more free no obligation information click the WWW button below.
0 Replies
 
 

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