Water Softeners - What are the differences in brands?

So you decided not to answer any of my questions. None, zero, donuts.

I sincerely asked you straight questions to compare apples to apples as you are trying to compare a efficient setting with your choice and a less efficient setting on one you selectively says is not any better.

How is it that I am acting as you say? Is that your response to my pertinent questions? Maybe too many questions or too confusing, or too difficult to answer.

I left ample spaces for you to interject between each question. If you don't know, just say so and I will help you a little. So, again<

I would wonder why you selected that model and that salt setting.

Why the 2030 at 2.4 lbs?

How did you determine that?

Are you basing it on 22 grains at the source?

What is the salt efficency of that setting according to the water softener NSF protocol testing in grains per pound?

Why not the 1.8- lb setting, or 3-lb setting?

Why not the 2060 or the 2040,( or Q237)?

Are you calculating 2 people at 60 gal/per/day in a typical house with typical plumbing?

Are we talking about high iron (>1.0 ppm). Like I said a 5000-grain setting is more efficient than a 3000-grain setting.

How many treated gallons of use between regenerations for eight days?

How many grains per pound is that?

Why did you select an 8-lb setting, why not a 12-lb setting or a 4-lb setting?

What size tank (10x54?) and volume of resin (1.5 cuft)? As I said before, there is more involved than just throwing numbers out.
>>

I mean, come on Gary, you have made a few bold statements, and I have asked you to clarify them by making a baseline and simple grounds to apply a fairly accurate comparison. That's not too hard for you, I believe. I could selected Kinetico units that provide even worse salt efficiency than you had chosen.

For example, to make it easy for you.
4 people (x 60 = 240/day)
19 grains per gallon
0.5 ppm iron
normal water use

If this were consistent for a year, how much salt would your Clack use in one year?

Gary, you can continue to call me childish and that's OK if you think that is a proper, mature response. I am more interested in learning how what you suggest works than evading topics that you bring up.

Look forward to you answer. I have to change for gym class, now....

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Anyone buying a softener, especially a Kinetico, should total the salt used per regeneration on a weekly or monthly basis and compare that figure to other softeners they are looking into buying. If the sales person doesn't give you that figure or help you calculate the total, beware.

For those wanting a twin tank type softener, here is some information for you and a number of questions you should ask the sales person. Below is my reply to someone on another forum just 3-4 days ago; someone very much like Andy. Actually most people would think is was Andy using a different name because he, as Andy, was banned there a couple months ago and ALL his posts there over like 3-4 years were deleted as useless. A bit like his posts here.

*******
Actually, unlike Kinetico or Fleck twins, with the Clack twin, you can have one or two or more salt tanks. Personally I'd use two so that if there's any problem with a softener, you still have one complete softener to soften water with while reducing the number of potential brine line suction leaks.

Some other questions that are more important...

Like do you get water through both tanks instead of like most Kinetico twins only getting water through one at a time?

Or, like Kinetico, does regeneration happen when I'm using water or can I delay regeneration to like during the night when no one is up using water?

Or, does each tank have a purge rinse before it goes into service, rather than delivering maybe days old stagnant water like Kinetico and most of Fleck twin control valves?

Or, does the Clack twin have variable reserve, unlike Kinetico or Fleck?

Can I still have the choice of Pre or Post brine Refill with softened water?

Can the control valves be set up with various lengths of time for each of the cycle positions of the regenerations if I need more time for backwashing, or brining, or rinsing?

Does the Clack twin allow for two back washes instead of only one like Kinetico?

Can one backwash be longer or shorter than the other, unlike Kinetico's fixed length no matter what?

Can I get other tank colors than Kinetico's black that can get real dirty really quickly?

Or, can I have a choice of counter current/upflow or co current/downflow regeneration?

Can I get parts and instruction manuals from many locations, especially online, so I can affordably and on my own time schedule repair my softener myself, unlike Kinetico customers?

Or... will a Clack twin tank type softener cost me less than the same size Kinetico?

In most cases can I get a larger Clack twin for less than Kinetico's price?

Do I have the ability to access operational history and troubleshooting data; such as the current and maximum gpm flow rates or max number of regenerations and gallons used since start up, total and average gallons between regenerations, the volume of variable reserve and numerous diagnostics data, unlike a Kinetico?

Can I change my hardness and salt dose lbs, K of capacity etc. etc. unlike a Kinetico where you have to buy a new disc etc.?

By the way, the answer to ALL those questions is YES!!

I guess you decided not to answer any of my questions. That explains a lot.

GARY'S REPLY
You can play dumb and act like a spoiled 14 year old all you want; it's OK with me.

Andy is acting like most Kinetico salesmen when asked how many lbs of salt used per week etc.. When you are buying a softener, if you are interested in salt efficiency (everyone wants to know how much salt will be used in some time frame), you must ask how frequently it is going to regenerate and... how much salt it is going to use per regeneration and then compare the total lbs used per week etc. to any other softener you are thinking of buying.

You are mistaken here, again, Gary. That is exactly what Imwas asking you. I always expalin salt efficiency when making comparison with their current equipment. That is why I asked those questions which you haven't even tried to anwer.

Let's try again...
For example, to make it easy for you.
4 people (x 60 = 240/day)
19 grains per gallon
0.5 ppm iron
normal water use

If this were consistent for a year, how much salt would your Clack use in one year?

I was hoping for a mature, professional reply.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Sorry guys, didn't mean to start\continue an arguement. H20 man, thanks for the suggestion. I will definitely look into the 2510. I've only heard good things about Fleck and would like to stick with their line.

One more question, what are the major differences between the Fleck 5600SXT and the Fleck 2510SXT? Thanks!

Sketty55
Not to worry and it wasn't much of an argument, afterall.

The 2510 is a very good valve and has been around a long time. We use it often as an alternative and for many filter applications.


Andy Christensen, CWS-II

H20man and Andy can answer those questions for you but, neither is as simple, easy or as fast to repair as a Clack WS-1 and the parts cost more than Clack parts. So if you want to be an independent DIYer and repair your softener yourself, that might be important to you.

I sold Fleck almost exclusively for over 18 years and the Clack now 6 years next month. I've sold over 1300 Clacks and had only 28 warranty problems.

Had I sold that many Flecks, based on my experience of 18+ yrs, I would have expected 100-125 problems by now; just less than 10%. And the 2510 has not been around too much longer than the Clack.

To compare a Clack to a Fleck, you need to look at the 7000 or Proflo, they have most of the features of the Clack but they are not anywhere near as easy to program or repair as the Clack. If you look at a Clack, stay away from the EE version.

Hey, greeat Gary, you're back. But I was wonderting if you could take some time away from your marketing here on the forum to go ahead and give me those numbers on a total salt use for a year as I asked above.

Looking forward to learning more about the Clack you are trying to sell here. I think the guy said he wasnted to stick with the Fleck models.

Both are solid performers. I prefer and sell the 2510 exclusively because it is
robust, has a higher flow rate and if the need ever arises... it's easy to work on.

I have many hundreds of the digitally controlled Fleck 2510 valves working in the
field and they have not given me or my clients a moment of trouble.
I have replaced several 5600 valves and I refuse to sell Clack.

I see Andy didn't reply at all to your question and h20man didn't get very specific at all in answering and actually implies a benefit of the 2510 that may not be of any importance to you; the higher flow rate.

The 5600 is a good valve as the 2510 is. The primary difference is that the 5600 is much easier to repair and it has many fewer parts than the 2510. The 5600 has one motor and the 2510 has two. The 5600 piston, seals and spacers come up out of the valve body (vertically) and the 2510 come out the front (horizontally). The 2510 will have more piston stem wear/o-ring leaks because of that than the 5600 because its piston is pulled up or pushed down evenly and with no side wear forces as there are in the 2510 design.

The higher flow rate of the 2510 allows it to be used on larger tanks (6" to IIRC 16") than the 5600 (6" to 12") which is as a softener a 2.0 cuft. Filters are 6-10" for the 5600 and 6-16" for the 2510. You may not need a larger softener than 2.0 cuft so you'd be paying for an ability that you don't need and would not use.

As to the 2510 being easier to work on, I disagree based on 18+ years of service on both, but you can figure it out yourself if you go to
www.fleckcontrols.com and look at a service manual parts breakdown for both.
5600 page 24 and 26;
http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/PentairFiles/Pentair%20Water%20Treatment/Manuals/5600SXT%20Downflow%20Service%20Manual%2042684.pdf

There is no 2510 SXT manual on the Fleck web site.

A Fleck 7000 is overkill because it is a 1.25" valve but it is a better comparison to the Clack WS-1 CS than the 5600 or 2510 valves. Pages 24 and 26
http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/PentairFiles/Pentair%20Water%20Treatment/Manuals/7000SXT%20Service%20Manual%2042775.pdf

The Clack WS-1CS has more features than both the Fleck valves and many fewer parts while it has the same piston, seal and spacer design with huge improvements.

a rainsoft is a watersoftner that is over priced and takes out the same as any other unless u are saying that with a r/o big dill

a sears unit is alright if on city water if u are on well water have no iron than no problem

a water softner is a water softner a rainsoft dont take out deadly crap r/o systems takes out crap that water softners cant

Gary, you needn't volunteer me (or anyone else, for that matter) to answer the OPs questions, and then be critical when I don't. I find it strange that you are pointing out that I didn't respond to all the questions, but you don't respond to any of mine. Uhm? Interesting.

No, this information is incorrect.

That's because you are a Kinetico salesman.

I would still like to hear your reply to my earlier question about salt efficiency.

I can see your latest reply has no value as you are breaking my quote halfway. Any reason you didn't quote the rest of the sentence?

I am anxious to hear your reply. Would you like me to give that example again, or perhaps give another one? "Because I am a Kinetico saleman." Boy, what reply!!!

For example, to make it easy for you.
4 people (x 60 = 240/day)
19 grains per gallon
0.5 ppm iron
normal water use

If this were consistent for a year, how much salt would your Clack use in one year?

Now to be fair, you accused me of not discussing this with customers when in fact I do. So I am looking forward to you keeping your word.

Come on Gary, don't let us down.

OK, I couldn't take anymore of your whining like a littler kid so after great deliberation, and calculation using Kinetico's figures, and a huge expense of time, my softener will use less salt than yours.

That's your answer!!! You don't really think the calculation LESS THAN YOURS was what I was looking for. I mean, that has long been your established opinion already.

Let's try again.

For example, to make it easy for you.
4 people (x 60gal = 240gal/day)
19 grains per gallon
0.5 ppm iron
normal water use

If this were consistent for a year, how much salt would the Clack use in one year? You claim you go into great detail on this with your customers and that I don't, right!? Must be old-hat by now.

"...less salt than yours." Oh my. Not much of an answer from a man who any other time tries so hard to churn out numbers.

Now this really doesn't require huge expense of time and effort-- except to avoid answering. I am not denying a single-tank system uses LESS salt, I am asking how much, you know in POUNDS, Gary. You may have Kinetico's numbers, but I don't have Clack's. I was counting on you to provide those in a quantitative response.

Of course, when you give the answer, I would appeciate the calculation method, too. Since you have already done, that should be a breeze.

So, give it another go. I will be patient. I know you can do it.