Water Softeners - What are the differences in brands?

@Andy CWS,

Anyone buying a softener, especially a Kinetico, should total the salt used per regeneration on a weekly or monthly basis and compare that figure to other softeners they are looking into buying. If the sales person doesn't give you that figure or help you calculate the total, beware.

For those wanting a twin tank type softener, above is some information for you and a number of questions you should ask the sales person. Below is my reply to someone on another forum just 3-4 days ago; someone very much like Andy. Actually most people would think is was Andy using a different name because he, as Andy, was banned there a couple months ago and ALL his posts there over like 3-4 years were deleted as useless. A bit like his posts here.

1 Reply

@Gary Slusser,

Gary Slusser wrote:

Anyone buying a softener, especially a Kinetico, should total the salt used per regeneration on a weekly or monthly basis and compare that figure to other softeners they are looking into buying. If the sales person doesn't give you that figure or help you calculate the total, beware.

For those wanting a twin tank type softener, above is some information for you and a number of questions you should ask the sales person. Below is my reply to someone on another forum just 3-4 days ago; someone very much like Andy. Actually most people would think is was Andy using a different name because he, as Andy, was banned there a couple months ago and ALL his posts there over like 3-4 years were deleted as useless. A bit like his posts here.

Now you are just replying with a word-for-word post (cut-n-paste?) you entered earlier in the thread????

Helloooo! That's what I am askin' you to do. You are neither giving those figures OR telling us how to calculate. So you are not actually saying customers should beware of you, are you?

Let's try agaaaaain...
For example, to make it easy for you.
4 people (x 60 = 240/day)
19 grains per gallon
0.5 ppm iron
normal water use

If this were consistent for a year, how much salt would the Clack use in one year?

I can't see how it really serves any purpose to look at salt usage on a minute-by-minute period when comparing a twin-tank to a single-tank system. Let's stretch it out to one year (365 days) given an apples-to-apples approach. I think that would be a fair comparison. I prefer a system that can perform for the distance.

Now that you openly declare (by name calling) you shouldn't trust anyone that doesn't give you those figures, many pounds was that again, Gary?

nb.
PLEASE don't just repeat another thread especially with a reference that is omitted. What was that all about? Whew!

Again, you falsely imply that I am using another name on another forum, which I have already clearly stated that is NOT TRUE. Are you going to persist with this flimsy approach?

As far as being banned:Yes. I was never given any notice and along with myself about five others were also banned in a summary Stalinistic-style purge. Of course, it is along way from the 6 or 7 forums you've been banned from. And all the false names you have admitted to using---churlish, metzer, mhlurker, etc.

But let's focus on salt use for now. OK?

1 Reply

@Andy CWS,

Yes, let's talk about salt use.

As usual, you, a Kinetico salesmen distract, change the subject and mislead everyone you can about how great Kinetico salt efficiency is because you only talk about grains per lb per regeneration but won't say how frequently your softener regenerates compared to others.

Actual salt efficiency from the consumers' point of view is the total lbs used over a given period of time; day/week/month/year.

When my softener uses a total of say 8 lbs per regeneration and is regenerated on average once every 8 days based on gallon used, and yours uses 2.2 lbs once per day based on gallons, for a total of 17.6 lbs in 8 days, mine is the more salt efficient softener. Or if yours uses 4 lbs per regeneration and regenerates a tank on average every 4th day (30/4=7.5*4=30lbs), in a 30 day period yours uses the same amount of salt as mine (30/8=3.75*8=30lbs).

Where do I get the numbers from... I have the Kinetico Key, Salt Setting-pounds of salt. You're right there is no 2.2 lbs, it is 2.4 lbs (see below).

From a Kinetico manual (the numbers 1-8 are disc numbers) the numbers after the salt dose are the hardness gpg;
NUMBERS DENOTE COMPENSATED HARDNESS
(Compensated hardness is determined by multiplying the number of PPM iron x 3 and adding it to the actual hardness.)
Meter Disc
Model Salt Setting 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1.8 lb. Salt* (A) 4 10 14 19 23 27 31 34
2.4 lb. Salt (C) 5 11 16 22 26 31 35 39
2.7 lb. Salt (D) 6 12 18 23 28 33 38 43
Kinetico 2030s
3.0 lb. Salt (E) 7 13 19 25 30 36 41 45
Kinetico 2040s OD
1.0 lb. Salt* 7 15 21 27 31 36 40 44

Same Kinetico Manual showing Usable Gallons Between Regenerations by Model number (numbers after the model number are the gallons) gallons after model number.
Model Meter Disc # 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Kinetico 2030s 1250 625 417 313 250 208 179 156
Kinetico 2040s OD 650 325 217 163 130 108 93 81
Model 50c 600 300 200 150 120 100 85 75
Kinetico 2060s 1250 625 417 313 250 208 179 156
*******
From that I can come up with how frequently the Kinetico will regenerate in X number of days. I also have the per regeneration salt efficiency figures for all models of Kinetico softeners.

So, Andy Christensen CWS-II (Kinetico salesman), tell us again that It doesn't matter how often it regenerates because in the Kinetico consumer manual there is a line asking for the Salt Usage: _________ lbs. per _______ month(s).

With a Kinetico manual or two, a Kinetico control valve, the number of gallons for each of the various disc numbers, and a number of pictures of all the various little gears and other numerous plastic parts. I have the instructions for setting the salt tank float too (salt dose lbs), what a miserable way of setting a salt dose!! So I'm thinking maybe I'm a bit more familiar than you give me credit for.

1 Reply

@Gary Slusser,

Boy, Gary, this is the third time you copied and pasted an earlier post. Have you given up? Just say the word. Nah, don't do that. I'd like to see your calculation and total salt use for a year. Hang in there, man, you can do it.

Why are you saying 2.2 pounds? If you cut-n-paste, Gary, you should at least correct your earlier mistakes. That and the other mistakes don't need to be rehashed--again.--I'm sure. Adding nothing and contributing nothing, here, are we, Gary?

Why have you chosen a Kinetico unit and setting that is nether efficient nor that I would even recommend? No wonder your figures suit you so well. Is this how you present it to your on-line, internet/telephone customers?

So why are you comparing, say, a Clack on 20 grains and two people with a Kinetico on 30 grains with four people. I mean isn't that what you are doing? What ARE you doing? Is that a very fair representation? What size single-tank, electronic system are using for your data (please! don't say "one size fits all")?

Which Kinetico unit are you using? Model number please.
Why are you using a 2.2 salt selection? Again?

Gary:
"Actual salt efficiency from the consumers' point of view is the total lbs used over a given period of time; ...year. "

I agree, that's why I set a typical, fair, easy to understand AND calculate baseline. Please as follows:

Please give me an idea about this salt usage. You seem to know about how to calculate salt use for a period of a year, right?
4 people (x 60 = 240/day)
19 grains per gallon
0.5 ppm iron
normal water use

If this were consistent for a year, how much salt would your Clack use in one year?

Look forward to your honest answer.

Oh, I went through some of your older posts, too, in case you forgot what you said in those. There may be some additional cut-n-pastes there as well.

1 Reply

@Andy CWS,

Andy CWS wrote:

Oh, I went through some of your older posts, too, in case you forgot what you said in those. There may be some additional cut-n-pastes there as well.

I see you did, some were over 2 yrs old. I see that as harassment.

psssstt you're being childish again.

2 Replies

@Gary Slusser,

Gary Slusser wrote:

Andy CWS wrote:
Oh, I went through some of your older posts, too, in case you forgot what you said in those. There may be some additional cut-n-pastes there as well.

I see you did, some were over 2 yrs old. I see that as harassment.

psssstt you're being childish again.

You falsly accused me and I was hoping you'd own up. Pulling up old post just demonstrates that this has been going on and on.
Please give me an idea about this salt usage. You seem to know about how to calculate salt use for a period of a year, right?
4 people (x 60 = 240/day)
19 grains per gallon
0.5 ppm iron
normal water use

If this were consistent for a year, how much salt would your Clack use in one year?

1 Reply

@Andy CWS,

Please give me an idea about this salt usage. You seem to know about how to calculate salt use for a period of a year, right?
4 people (x 60 = 240/day)
19 grains per gallon
0.5 ppm iron
normal water use

If this were consistent for a year, how much salt would your Kinetico use in one year?

1 Reply

@Gary Slusser,

Gary Slusser wrote:

Please give me an idea about this salt usage. You seem to know about how to calculate salt use for a period of a year, right?
4 people (x 60 = 240/day)
19 grains per gallon
0.5 ppm iron
normal water use

If this were consistent for a year, how much salt would your Kinetico use in one year?

Give me a break, Gary. Is that your response? Just turn the tables? I was hoping for a mature, professional reply but that would be awkward consdering your accusations which are without merit or grounds.

I can see this is just beating a dead horse.

0 Replies

Just an update needed, Gary
Please give me an idea about this salt usage. You seem to know about how to calculate salt use for a period of a year, right?
4 people (x 60 = 240/day)
19 grains per gallon
0.5 ppm iron
normal water use

If this were consistent for a year, how much salt would your Clack use in one year?

1 Reply

@Andy CWS,

Anyone buying a softener, especially a Kinetico, should total the salt used per regeneration on a weekly or monthly basis and compare that figure to other softeners they are looking into buying. If the sales person doesn't give you that figure or help you calculate the total, beware.

1 Reply

@Gary Slusser,

Gary Slusser wrote:

Anyone buying a softener, especially a Kinetico, should total the salt used per regeneration on a weekly or monthly basis and compare that figure to other softeners they are looking into buying. If the sales person doesn't give you that figure or help you calculate the total, beware.

You'tre not sidestepping it, are you?
That's why I am asking you. Why especially Kinetico? This goes with anyone. In fact with Kinetico, that should be rather simple given a baseline.

But remember you accused me of not doing that AND then quoted some wild salt estimates without basis to show how the Clack is superior. I am just asking you to stand by your word and define your calculations. How did you come to 365 lb/year? What are you talking about?

Until now you refuse to do that. I think I can underastand why. You said, now explain it. You claim your system uses 365 pounds of salt per year. Under what conditions? What hardness and iron levels? How many people? Without any baseline, those calculations of 365 lbs/year is pointless.

I would like you to explain that. Do you think you can do that?

Here is a typical situation.
Please give me an idea about this salt usage. You seem to know about how to calculate salt use for a period of a year, right?
4 people (x 60 = 240/day)
19 grains per gallon
0.5 ppm iron
normal water use

Since this is so difficult for you, let me reverse it. Someone just used 365 pounds last year. Under what conditions would that be likely?

1 Reply

@Andy CWS,

Andy CWS wrote:

Gary Slusser wrote:

Anyone buying a softener, especially a Kinetico, should total the salt used per regeneration on a weekly or monthly basis and compare that figure to other softeners they are looking into buying. If the sales person doesn't give you that figure or help you calculate the total, beware.

But remember you accused me of not doing that

And you still haven't.

Andy here is a typical situation.
Please give me an idea about this salt usage on a weekly, monthly of annual total.
4 people (x 60 = 240/day)
19 grains per gallon
0.5 ppm iron
normal water use

1 Reply

@Gary Slusser,

Gary, Gary, Gary. You have the numbers, you quoted them already, you don't need that information again, do you? You said Kinetico uses four pounds of salt per day. you say it regenerates many times everyday. You're the one making claims, not me. Why are you afraid?

I am asking you about your equipment. I don't know how you are calculating it, yet you keep claiming that it is better than what you quote Kinetico fo doing.

I would like to see what your equipment can do and how it performs. I don't have your numbers like you have Kinetico numbers. yours figures are the unknown here, not Kinetico's.

Why are you hesitating except that you can't do it? Or just messin' wit me.

1 Reply

@Andy CWS,

Sold another softener yesterday where the guy's wife had Kinetico out and they were told "a regular softener will use a bag of salt a month and this Kinetico will use a quarter of that". They were not told what disc would be used or how many lbs of salt per regeneration, or how frequently the softener would regenerate. They also were not told how big a bag of salt the regular softener would use.

That's the lying Kinetico marketing we are talking about Andrew.

1 Reply

@Gary Slusser,

Right, Gary. Sure. Another baseless statement.

We often replace softeners that use far less than 1/4 of the salt used in one's previous softener. Very often. I just replaced one last June that was going four bags (50#) a month and now they are using one bag (50#) per 5 weeks or so.... Go figure. Happens all the time, in this area.

What does that mean? Nothing much really except that I have actually been to the customers' house and witnessed first hand the evidence and facts rather than interpreting them on a phone call.

What were the initial conditions, what softener valve, size (and how old) was being replaced, what was the salt setting, was it a timer/demand, how many people, what are the water conditions, which Kinetico did he recommend, which one did you sell, etc., etc., etc.

Did the customer ask the questions to the responses you claim were never given? If they had, the answers should have been given.

Here we go again, Gary, you wildly throw out conclusion numbers that are baseless and, therefore, pointless. Why even bother except as means of badmouthing again? Is that how a professional should behave?

By not going into detail, aren't you even more guilty of what you are accusing someone of something that you can't know as true? It is difficult to find credibility in your hearsay, especially when you are so highly motivated to slam something/someone and twist (or most commonly: fail to reveal) numbers to your benefit --at the expense of others. You have publicly accused a world-leading company in water treatment of lying as a base for all dealers to follow. Man, Gary, you ARE a real piece of work.

It is always interesting to read your diatribe.

1 Reply

@Andy CWS,

Andy CWS wrote:

Right, Gary. Sure. Another baseless statement.

I said what I was told the Kinetico salesman said as he attempted to sell a Kinetico softener just the night before to the person that told me that. Over the last 7-8 years I have heard the same type things from many people from all over this country and Canada.

Andy CWS wrote:

We often replace softeners that use far less than 1/4 of the salt used in one's previous softener. Very often. I just replaced one last June that was going four bags (50#) a month and now they are using one bag (50#) per 5 weeks or so.... Go figure. Happens all the time, in this area.

You might want to reread what you said there. And my customer's old Kenmore softener that the Kinetico guy was going to replace wasn't using 200 lbs/month; it had been using less than 50 lbs/month.

Andy CWS wrote:

What does that mean? Nothing much really except that I have actually been to the customers' house and witnessed first hand the evidence and facts rather than interpreting them on a phone call.

So I can't do it over the phone, I have to be out at the person's house huh... what a dumbass comment that is! While it says the Kinetico prospect was lying to me. Or that I'm lying as to what he told me the Kinetico guy said.

Andy CWS wrote:

Did the customer ask the questions to the responses you claim were never given? If they had, the answers should have been given.

So now it's the prospective Kinetico customers' fault for not knowing to ASK the Kinetico salesman the right questions!

The couple listened to what the Kinetico salesman said and was impressed with what they were hearing until they were given the price of all but $3000. They said they'd think about it and after the Kinetico guy left the wife said about checking online and I sold a softener to them the next day.

Andy CWS wrote:

Here we go again, Gary, you wildly throw out conclusion numbers that are baseless and, therefore, pointless. Why even bother except as means of badmouthing again? Is that how a professional should behave?

Andy Andy Andy... you keep going on about me not being "professional" and yet continue to expect to be able to say something to me that is going to make me become a "professional" so I'll stop talking the truth about rip off artists such as many Kinetico salesmen... Now man continuing to do something that fails over'n over again for years on end and still expecting a different outcome, that's just plain DUMB!

Andy CWS wrote:

Blah blah Gray, blah blah Gary blah blah... on'n on.

I previously said: Sold another softener yesterday where the guy's wife had Kinetico out and they were told "a regular softener will use a bag of salt a month and this Kinetico will use a quarter of that". They were not told what disc would be used or how many lbs of salt per regeneration, or how frequently the softener would regenerate. They also were not told how big a bag of salt the regular softener would use.

That's the lying Kinetico marketing we are talking about Andrew.

2 Replies

@Gary Slusser,

maybe I'm pretty stupid, but isn't the amount of salt used based on hardness,iron content and amount of water used? Doesn't resin take a certain amount of salt to get cleaned based on these figures and the size/ amount of resin in the tank ? If the system is set up properly don't they all use about the same amount of salt, depending on how much resin needs to be cleaned/recharged? Some may use more water than others, but again, if the systems is set up properly,won't they use the same amount of salt? I'm confused,help me out. Joe

2 Replies

@Gary Slusser,

Andy CWS wrote:

We often replace softeners that use far less than 1/4 of the salt used in one's previous softener. Very often. I just replaced one last June that was going four bags (50#) a month and now they are using one bag (50#) per 5 weeks or so.... Go figure. Happens all the time, in this area.

You might want to reread what you said there. And my customer's old Kenmore softener that the Kinetico guy was going to replace wasn't using 200 lbs/month; it had been using less than 50 lbs/month.
I reread it, what's your point? Did you mention Kenmore before? 50 pounds can be multiplied by 25%, right? But of course just throwing numbers out there (deja vu all over again), is meaningless. Again, no water conditions, no hardness/iron numbers, no number of people, so on and so on. How could anyone make even a wild guess at what results can be determined.

Andy CWS wrote:

What does that mean? Nothing much really except that I have actually been to the customers' house and witnessed first hand the evidence and facts rather than interpreting them on a phone call.

So I can't do it over the phone, I have to be out at the person's house huh... what a dumbass comment that is! While it says the Kinetico prospect was lying to me. Or that I'm lying as to what he told me the Kinetico guy said.
Without details those conclusions are meaningless. Nice language there, by the way.

Andy CWS wrote:

Did the customer ask the questions to the responses you claim were never given? If they had, the answers should have been given.

So now it's the prospective Kinetico customers' fault for not knowing to ASK the Kinetico salesman the right questions!
Well, there are thousands of details that anyone could be accused of not saying. I'm puzzled at what was the lie that you keep harping on.

Andy Andy Andy... you keep going on about me not being "professional" and yet continue to expect to be able to say something to me that is going to make me become a "professional" so I'll stop talking the truth about rip off artists such as many Kinetico salesmen... Now man continuing to do something that fails over'n over again for years on end and still expecting a different outcome, that's just plain DUMB!
Enough said there, Thank you. What made you think I expected you to change and behave any differently?

I previously said: Sold another softener yesterday where the guy's wife had Kinetico out and they were told "a regular softener will use a bag of salt a month and this Kinetico will use a quarter of that". They were not told what disc would be used or how many lbs of salt per regeneration, or how frequently the softener would regenerate. They also were not told how big a bag of salt the regular softener would use.
You are not going to provide details, are you? So I guess we just have to have faith your perspective alone. Ok, you win. Just go ahead and keep making claims with details. I understand why you do that.

That's the lying Kinetico marketing we are talking about Andrew.
What was the lie, again?

0 Replies

@Joethewaterguy,

we need to rename this forum to the "Andy and Gary just want to fight with each other and not really want to help people that ask questions forum"

0 Replies

@Joethewaterguy,

Joethewaterguy wrote:

maybe I'm pretty stupid, but isn't the amount of salt used based on hardness,iron content and amount of water used? Doesn't resin take a certain amount of salt to get cleaned based on these figures and the size/ amount of resin in the tank ? If the system is set up properly don't they all use about the same amount of salt, depending on how much resin needs to be cleaned/recharged? Some may use more water than others, but again, if the systems is set up properly,won't they use the same amount of salt? I'm confused,help me out. Joe

Yes Joe, same volume and type of resin using the same lbs of salt per regeneration the salt efficiency is the same.

So why do you suppose Kinetico salesmen, like Andy, the company web site and all the Kinetico ads say their softener is more salt efficient than others?

The answer is because they never total their salt use over time like a week, a month etc..

And that is the what the Andy and Gary "fight" as you call it is about.

And as we see now, Andy says it is their prospective customers' fault for not asking the right questions....

Not to mention that Andy is against online dealers like me and does his best to get me banned wherever he can. He whines and otherwise complains to moderators etc. constantly. IMO and experience, exposing Kinetico's false statements is very helpful to forum members and guests that read what is said in forums.

0 Replies

Water Softeners - What are the differences in brands?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know