Water Softeners - What are the differences in brands?

Can you post a picture of the electric timer and dials?

Old electric timer is stuck


Sure thing. The top one shows the faceplate. I could send hi-res images if that would help.

wow! That is a pristine Intermatic 7 day mechanical timer.
The same company made timers for RainSoft, Fleck and others years ago.

Unfortunately chances are good that the only part that is worn out is the index lever.
Manual Regeneration tab with red arrow.
These have not been produced for over a year and are impossible to find.
I have searched and searched.

I hate to say it, but it's time to retire this workhorse and get yourself a new metered softener.

Let me know if I can be of further assistance,

H2OMAN

Time to choose a new water conditioner
The two models I have in mind (here in Canada) are the Kenmore Ultrasoft 800 and the North Star NSC 25ED. Both seem to work on metering the volume of water used since the last regen -- unlike my old mechanical timer! They use a turbine water meter.

North Star makes a higher model, the Ultra NSC. I haven't been able to see yet whether it's very similar to the Kenmore 800. The North Star brochure I picked up this week has the same wording for the Ultra as its brochure from July 1996, which I found in my collection of brochures. Have there been no "ultra" developments for a decade?

Sears has announced a 33% off sale on the 800, so that's attractive if the model isn't simply over-capacity for me. Water from my well has 12 grains of hardness and .1 of iron.

We've been a week without softened water. Does that matter? 29 years ago, when we moved in, it took a couple of months before we realized that softened water was a necessity. That's how long the old system lasted.

Comments welcomed.

Go with the North Star unit.
These are made by ECOWATER and are excellent.
I would spend a few $$ more for the top line unit.

The industry did see many improvements in control valves around 2001.
You want a new production unit - not old stock.

The top Kenmore unit, model 800, seems very similar in electronic controls and other functions, to the top North Star series, model NS 29 UD and up, except that the Kenmore has greater capacities. Are they made by the same company?

As for EcoWater, I have an opportunity to buy a 2001-built ERR 3000 that's been in service for 3 years. The motor and the water and salt usage are impressive, but a used conditioner at a good price may be a bad deal. I don't know what to think about this one. Regen upon predicted needs seems to me less reliable than regen upon metered use.

Repair or replace softerner
I have a Sears Water softerner purchased 1988 high cap 70(#625 342702
Have serviced it over the years, value & gasket problems. Now have timer motor problem. Motor stuck, was not advancing time, un pluged unit, and waited few seconds, restarted. Now working. For how long??. Replacement motor fr. sears $113.00 tax & ship included.

Do I buy new or repair??? Water orignial ck 11.3 grains, iron ,2, ph8.1
Now only two adults in home. Orignally 2 adults 2 childern.

If everything else on the system is working $113.00 is a small price to pay for continued service.

I say fix it.

non electric
you see warranties on systems but read the fine print. lifetime hmmmm who's lifetime mine or the filters and what exactly covers the lifetime warranty. the triple reinforced tank i believe. in florida there warranty is meaningless after two years. the electric components are not covered and try to find a service tech. what happens when you loose power. it doesn't work, and most single tanks when regenerating are in bypass so don't use it or you will induce hard water in your home. I own a KINETICO SYSTEM and it is great. I have had it for one year and never had a problem with it. I use 2.7 lbs of salt during regenerating and with the mach system i also use less water
I have never had hard water because when it regenerates it has two tanks.
I would reccomend this product to anyone out there and my salesman was very professional and on time. the installer showed up on time and had it installed in about hour. goodbye electric system. and get this 5 days later I get a visit by him just checking out to see how the system was working. He dropped off my warranty and instructions. Kinetico has a ten year warranty on the whole softener including the resin inside he told me. for ten years i have no worries about my softener. I would suggest everyone check into these units. they are a little pricy but when he showed me i was paying for something i didn't have i decided to go ahead and buy it. :wink:

I ended my search by buying the Kenmore Ultrasoft 400 and am satisfied so far. The readout of the average daily water usage is of interest. Does anyone how many days' usage is used for computing the average?

kinetico is calculated on 1200 gals devided by the metered disc 1-8

Hi H2O_Man

I live in west side of Houston, most neighbors have outdoor water softener on corner of house around here as we have well water. Tough on a machine in our climate. Most have Rayne brand machines and are medium happy with them. I was turned off by the hard sell by them when we moved into our new house 2 years ago. Wife still on my case so time to look for machine.

On your ealier recommendation I'm going to contact local companies, any thoughts on what who to get machine from and any thoughts on installing yourself? Or just pay the extra $k and have a local company do it.

Thanks in advance . . .

If at all possible try and find a local ECOwater dealer. The 3000 series is awesome and is designed for exterior installations.
I just installed one in Valdosta, GA last Thursday. I got lucky and found a way to put it on the garage though.
NorthStar would ne my second choice.

You could do the install yourself, but it may be worth the extra $ to have the dealer install it.

HTH ~

Thanks H2O_Man

Wow you are fast, appreciate support, just found Ecowater dealer near here, will phone tomorrow, Northstar also avail further away. Couple more quick questions for your advice please:

1) Any reason not to go with Rayne like most neighbors have done? Don't see it referred to in any of the forums.

2) Checked Ecowater's website, where I found ERR 3000 & ECR 3000 models. I assume you mean one of those, but neither looks like outdoor system as plastic housing that will embrittle quickly in our sun.

None-the-less I'll phone tomorrow, thanks again.

Call for a sales appointment???
I've been trying to sort out the various brands and systems and have been convinced here and elsewhere that I should look at softeners other than those sold by retailers. If the prices are about the same and I can get better valves, tanks and warranties, it makes sense. I've found that most of the manufacturers expect you to call a saleman to start the process of selecting a softener. Of the four brands I've tried to investigate (ecowater, kinetico, northstar and ohiopurewaterco), only the last one has pricing on their web site. What gives with that? I buy my cars by shopping online, configuring and pricing the vehicle and only have to put up with a saleman after I know exactly what I want and how much it should cost. I don't want to sit through a half dozen high pressure sales pitches just to get a price that's more than I want to pay. I always feel that when someone tells me I have to talk to a saleman before they can tell me what it's gonna cost, they must not be too proud of their price and I'm about to get pressured. While Sears, Lowest and Home Despot may not sell softeners with Fleck valves and 10-year warranties, I can at least get prices on their web sites. Is it possible to get pricing on ecowater, kinetico or northstar systems online or do I just categorically rule them out?

Ray

nots3w,

Manufacturers don't publish prices, they leave that up to the distributor.
The web site you found with prices listed is a distributor not a manufacturer.

Also, there is no one size fits all POE water treatment system. You need to
Test your water and address your specific needs. This can't be done online.

HTH ~

Softener Types
Andy CWS has done a good job of explaining the different real world operating possibilities of the single resin tank softener system and the advantages of the dual ( twin ) resin tanks system. I have used and installed both for over 20 years now. And I just wanted to "second" his helpful insights.
You can find a more basic explanation how the softeners actually make the water soft at this web link.
See "Water Softener Basics"
http://www.softenerparts.zoovy.com/category/4100/

Decision made...
I'd like to think it was a somewhat educated decision based on what I read in this thread and others I started...though I am sorry I sort of started a 'post' war on another thread...oh Well.

I opted out on the Kenmore or Sams Club GE. A few years back, from a cost perspective I think it may have been the way to go...ie I there was a time when the sucker could have been put in by Sears for $550. Assuming a 5 year life, which my Dad has always gotten, you could have gone thru 2/3 Sears units before approaching the cost of a Culligan...which could (though maybe not likely) die in the same period of time. Sears pricing has increased to more like $800+ now so it was not as clear cut a decision.

I opted out of Culligan, at $1200 - $1300 it was a bit to high for our budget.

That left me with a system consisting of Fleck or autotrol parts. That system could be installed by a company who only deals in Water Softening systems or my plumber or maybe even myself. I have no doubt my plumber could have done the job and set the unit up but if there was an issue......he might not be the best person to resolve the problem. I opted a water softener company that I found who is local. They are not big but the guy actually lives in my area, is familiar with our water and gave me a fair price for a Charger 456SE system; which uses a Fleck control valve.

I still may not appreciate the underpinnings as much as I'd like or know every part of the system and its manufacturer but I feel comfortable with the installer and the system in general. I feel my odds are better than with the Kenmore longevity wise, and for about the same price.

I am placing my order later today.

Thanks again to all.

5600 SE Control
The SE line of Fleck Controls use an electronic timer control and a turbine assembly that is very thin in size to count the water. I have seen some of these turbine assemblies crack and leak. Replacement cost is double the cost of the mechanical version used on Econominder Fleck valves that are not electronic. I use and recommend the mechanical version, since there is no $ 200 circuit board to worry about replacing some day. The mechanical version is also a little easier to trouble shooting and repair yourself. Also, the electronic versions can cause your system to regenerate too much if you have a "one day" high water "event". If the system "sees" you used 1,000 gallons one day ( because something got stuck open, fill a pool, etc. ), it will "remember" and continue to "average" this day into the "reserve" it calculates. This has been known to cause a unit to regenerate every night for a month or more. And your owners manual will not tell you have to "Reset" this "memory". I guess you can tell I'm not too fond of electronic controls on water softeners.

Re: Decision made...


Andre,

Sounds like you made an informed and sound decision. As far as appreciating the underpinnings as much as you'd like, with a phone call to a guy who actually lives in your area, is familiar with your water, and gave you a fair price... he'll take care of the details if needed.

Enjoy your soft water and let us know how it goes.