Water Softeners - What are the differences in brands?

Arun, if your peak demand water use gpm exceeds the SFR gpm of the volume of resin in the softener, the softener can not remove all the hardness etc. in the water.

Looking at the label on a Kinetico Model 30 it says (in caps):

7 gpm SERVICE FLOW RATE @ 15 psi DROP
3667 GRAINS EXCHANGE PER LB. SALT.

That first line means that if your peak demand is more than 7 gpm, the softener is undersized for your family size and the type of fixtures in your house.

Many dealers and especially sales people, never mention the SFR of their softeners... many of them have no idea what it is.

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Arun Mai,

I didn't read anywhere where someone recommended a Kinetico product to you. Do you know where that came from?

Let's address your situation as you wish. Only then can adequate equipment be to your advantage. A professional looks at your needs, your capabilities and your desired goals.

3ppm is quite strong and I am sure you can easily smell it when you turn on the water. There are many avenues that can handle chlorine reduction or elimniation. Some are low cost but may require more attention. And vice versa.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

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The mention was an example to prove the point concerning the SFR of a softener. I have the label here and thought that Kinetico was so well thought of by some that it was a prefect example.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

Although I don't like the idea, you could use a disposable cartridge GAC filter correctly sized for the peak demand flow rate of the house.

I suggest you search for "softener sizing" + SFR, and learn how to correctly size a softener. Then I suggest one using a Clack WS-1 control valve. A softener must be sized for the SFR (service flow rate in gpm that it will be expected to treat. If the peak demand exceeds the SFR of the volume of resin, the softener can not remove all the hardness in your water.

What is a gac filter? Why do you not like the idea of a GAC filter?

I tried a search to find a link to calculate service flow rates and couldn't find one.

The hardness is 15gpg, managanese is .02ppm and the utility company website says that they use chlorine for primary disinfection and chloramine for secondary disinfection and contains two to three milligrams per liter.

I talked to a culligan salesman and he did not mention about any thing other than the softener itself. I talked to another fleck softener dealer and he was the one who said I needed the Centuar carbon filter.

From what I read, it says 1ppm of chlorine reduces the resin life by half. That sounds terrible for my situation.

thank you,
Arun M

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GAC stands for granulated activated carbon. It is specially prepared carbon (of varying sources) that comes in small pieces and packaged loosely in a vessel for water to flow through lengthwise..

One problem with small GAC filters in cartridges is the volume of water passes through so quickly that there are some chances that the retention time (contact time) is not long enough to remove adequately the chlorine. Nonetheless, it still does an good job.

The contact time needed with KDF is far less and it last so much longer.

I have never personally seen where flow rate is a problem unless the media collects in great amounts of sediment which rarely happens in city water applications...but can. This is true with any type of surface or depth static filter.

1 ppm chlorine is enough to damage resins over a period of time.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

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arunmani wrote:

What is a gac filter? Why do you not like the idea of a GAC filter?

Granular activated carbon. The chlorine is in the water to prevent bacteria growth. Removing it on a POE (point of entry) basis leaves your softener and plumbing unprotected and in some cases that can cause bacterial contamination and an odor problem. You're better off with a drinking water filter and shower head filters.

arunmani wrote:

I tried a search to find a link to calculate service flow rates and couldn't find one.

Strange, when I search for the phrase + SFR I get 3 pages of hits with 10 hits/page. None of the links that were posted mention the SFR or number and type of water using fixtures in the house.

arunmani wrote:

The hardness is 15gpg, managanese is .02ppm and the utility company website says that they use chlorine for primary disinfection and chloramine for secondary disinfection and contains two to three milligrams per liter.

You have 'average' hardness, my record is 136 gpg. Since your water is chlorinated, you should/will not have any manganese in the water at your house.

You need a chlorine test done on the water AT your house. Any chlorine test kit is OK.

arunmani wrote:

From what I read, it says 1ppm of chlorine reduces the resin life by half. That sounds terrible for my situation.

That's the rule of thumb but it is also said that resin has an infinite life but usually 20+/- years. Currently a 1 cuft bag of regular mesh resin is delivered in the lower 48 for like <$100. It takes an average DIYer maybe 1.5 hrs to replace a softener's resin. It usually takes 20 minutes to change a disposable cartridge carbon filter and that may have to be done every week or three for all those years at what cost for the housing and cartridges?

And usually the person won't change the cartridge until they can't stand the pressure loss any more, and that pressure loss kills resin because the resin can not be successfully backwashed. So IMO, you'll protect your water quality and spend much less time effort and money by not removing the chlorine on a whole house basis and your softener will usually last longer without a prefilter of any kind; carbon or sediment.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

The chlorine is in the water to prevent bacteria growth. Removing it on a POE (point of entry) basis leaves your softener and plumbing unprotected and in some cases that can cause bacterial contamination and an odor problem.

You and your family ar far better off removing Chlorine and the byproducts of the Chlorination process at the point of entry.
You can easily by pass the GAC filter and reintroduce Chlorinated water into your household plumbing if a problem arises,
but the chances of any problems are slim to none.

_________________
WHAT CAN H2O MAN DO FOR YOU?

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Arun, GAC does not remove DPBs (disinfection by products) like THMs (trihalomethanes). You need a carbon block for that and sufficient contact time, you can't get that for POE (point of entry) treatment. You use carbon block type filters on POU (point of use); like at the kitchen sink.

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Consider a Multi-Pure POU drinking water filter if THMs are an issue.
These little filters are excellent, NSF certified and affordable to buy and maintain.

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They are very proprietary and over priced when compared to off the shelf industry standard cartridges like Kx.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

They are very proprietary and over priced when compared to off the shelf industry standard cartridges like Kx.

Not hardly - do your homework and get back to us with your findings.

When it comes to NSF certified solid carbon block POU filtration - there is no comparison.

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I challenged the Culligan guy with chlorine degrading the resin and he said the cullex resin has a life time warrany and I don't have to worry about it. How is Culligan able to offer a lifetime warranty if the resin will go bad so soon.

Arun M

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arunmani wrote:

I challenged the Culligan guy with chlorine degrading the resin and he said the cullex resin has a life time warrany and I don't have to worry about it. How is Culligan able to offer a lifetime warranty if the resin will go bad so soon.

Arun M

There are a few resins that are better suited to chlorinated water... the old ION X-100 that RainSoft used was one of these.
Chlorinated water had little if any negative effect on the resin.

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There is no resin that will not be harmed by chlorine, but there are two types of resin; 8% and 10% crosslinked and the 10% is much better on chlorine than 8% but... it is not worth the money when a cuft bag of resin is delivered anywhere in the US for right at $100.00.

Anyone raving about their resin is looking for a victim to sell a softener to, for whatever they want the victim to pay for it.

Anyone giving a "lifetime" warranty on anything has greatly overcharged their customer to be able to cover the future cost of replacing whatever over say the next 10-15 years. It's a marketing thing designed to sell more higher priced stuff and they know that after say 10 years, most people will forget about a lifetime warranty and probably replace the whole unit instead of repairing a ten year old softener. So the dealer pockets the money that may or may not have been in reserve for the warranty.

Resin is resin like sugar is sugar unless you go with a specialty resin and pay the premium price.

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I did some searching for the 10% cross linked resin and the price difference between the c-100E and the C100x10 or C100x10MB was not that much. 1cft of the 10% resin is around 140.00 whereas the 8% resign was around $120.00.

Since the price difference is not that much would you suggest going with the 10% resin rather than a carbon filter and worrying about bacteria problems.

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arunmani wrote:

Since the price difference is not that much would you suggest going with the 10% resin rather than a carbon filter and worrying about bacteria problems.

I like the combination of both in a backwashing system.
I guess bacteria could find its way into the system, but I have never known it to happen on municipal H2O.

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arunmani wrote:

Since the price difference is not that much would you suggest going with the 10% resin rather than a carbon filter and worrying about bacteria problems.

I don't like the idea of removing chlorine on a whole house basis, it can cause problems and did in my own home many years ago. So I wouldn't do it but yes, no carbon filter and a softener is what I suggest. But I wouldn't go with the extra cross linking because it isn't going to last that much longer than regular resin IMO.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

I don't like the idea of removing chlorine on a whole house basis,
it can cause problems and did in my own home many years ago.

Details please... what were the problems that you experienced?

_________________
WHAT CAN H2O MAN DO FOR YOU?

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water softener system selection
We are looking to buy a water treatment system. We are on a well, have high levels of iron and manganese that ruins our clothes, stains our toilets, showers, sinks, etc. We had a demo by a Puronics rep last night; the typical high pressure in-home sales deal. Several of our neighbors have the same problem (apparently there is a strong iron vein in this area) and they have water treatment systems installed by a local plumber. These are not the highly recognized name brand systems, but cost around $2,000 to $2,500. The Puronics rep started out at $6995 last night but before he left the price came down quite a bit. Is there that much of a difference in a $2K system installed by a plumber and something more pricey, say a Rainsoft or Puronics? I also have not been able to find much mention in forums of Puronics - does anyone have any experience?

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About the only difference is that the plumber or sales person/dealer makes more money.

The quality of the control valve dictates the length of the service free operation of a softener.

You need to know the make and model of the control valve they use.

Otherwise you can't compare anything except the price. You also need to know the size of the softener or the price is worthless info but... no residential sized softener is worth more than $2000. That is a price from a local dealer including installation. Online prices are normally $500-1000+ less than that and usually the softener will be equal or better quality. And you can fix it yourself when needed because their are no proprietary parts in the softener or control valve. And you can buy the parts from many local or online dealers instead of only from the one proprietary dealer that sold it to you at what ever price they want to charge for parts and service calls.

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Water Softeners - What are the differences in brands?

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