oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 2 Aug, 2019 07:24 pm
@neptuneblue,
neptuneblue wrote:
So, let me ask you,
is the punishment for selling un-taxed cigarettes death?

No.


neptuneblue wrote:
Because that's all Mr. Garner was doing.

He was also resisting arrest.


neptuneblue wrote:
And he was killed because if it.

You make it sound like someone deliberately harmed him. He died as the result of injuries that he sustained while struggling against the police officers who were arresting him.


neptuneblue wrote:
Seems like an unjust punishment to me.

His death was not a punishment.
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  4  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2019 02:13 pm
@oralloy,
It was murder.

The level of doubt ended by the second and at most third time that Mr.Garner choked out "I can't breathe." . - at that point, Panataleo should have released his arm from Mr.Garner's neck.

Add to this EMS personnel standing on the side for several minutes, not even checking on Mr.Garner's vitals.

What kept Panataleo from being put on trial include his being a cop and that he did this in the most prejudiced borough of NYC. Staten Island. Richmond County.

Not to mention the fact that the cops were going after a man attempting to make a living while just a few yards away, on the opposite side of Tompkinsville Park and in the park, illegal narcotics were being sold!
(The so called park is maybe an acre of land at most, so easy to patrol)

For those unaware of the location, it's at the intersection of Bay Street and Victory Boulevard, which is a transfer spot between buses. People but a few looseys while waiting for their bus to arrive.

(I lived in the area at one time)
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2019 04:29 pm
@Sturgis,
Sturgis wrote:
It was murder.

There is no evidence to back up this accusation.


Sturgis wrote:
The level of doubt ended by the second and at most third time that Mr.Garner choked out "I can't breathe." . - at that point, Panataleo should have released his arm from Mr.Garner's neck.

The video clearly shows that he released his grip before the first "I can't breathe".

It is possible that there was a single "I can't..." (without the word breathe) about one second before he released his grip. I'm going to guess though that this actually occurs at the instant that the grip was released.


Sturgis wrote:
Add to this EMS personnel standing on the side for several minutes, not even checking on Mr.Garner's vitals.

If there was any wrongdoing involved with that, it is hard to see how Officer Pantaleo was at fault.


Sturgis wrote:
What kept Panataleo from being put on trial include his being a cop and that he did this in the most prejudiced borough of NYC. Staten Island. Richmond County.

I think it was more a matter of the video clearly showing that he had already released his arm before the "I can't breathe" episode even started.

And also the fact that his grip on Garner happened because Garner was resisting arrest, and they were trying to tackle him.
neptuneblue
 
  4  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2019 06:02 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
There is no evidence to back up this accusation.


Yes there is. The medical examiner declared the death as a homicide.

"An independent autopsy conducted by Michael Baden, a former New York City medical examiner, agreed with the findings of the New York City Medical Examiner's Office and concluded that Garner's death was primarily caused by "compression of the neck". Baden reported finding hemorrhaging around Garner's neck, which was indicative of neck compression"

oralloy wrote:
The video clearly shows that he released his grip before the first "I can't breathe".


So what? Mr. Garner was clearly in distress.

oralloy wrote:
It is possible that there was a single "I can't..." (without the word breathe) about one second before he released his grip. I'm going to guess though that this actually occurs at the instant that the grip was released.


That's because at that point, Mr. Garner was rendered unconscious and therefore could not speak.

oralloy wrote:
If there was any wrongdoing involved with that, it is hard to see how Officer Pantaleo was at fault.


The officer could have performed CPR at that time.

The office also had two lawsuits filed against him for false arrest, and continued to harass Mr. Garner

oralloy wrote:
I think it was more a matter of the video clearly showing that he had already released his arm before the "I can't breathe" episode even started.


Again, it was clear Mr. Garner was already in distress.

oralloy wrote:
And also the fact that his grip on Garner happened because Garner was resisting arrest, and they were trying to tackle him.


Choke-holds are illegal.

oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2019 09:53 pm
@neptuneblue,
neptuneblue wrote:
Yes there is. The medical examiner declared the death as a homicide.

A declaration of homicide is not evidence of murder.


neptuneblue wrote:
"An independent autopsy conducted by Michael Baden, a former New York City medical examiner, agreed with the findings of the New York City Medical Examiner's Office and concluded that Garner's death was primarily caused by "compression of the neck". Baden reported finding hemorrhaging around Garner's neck, which was indicative of neck compression"

No part of what you quoted supports an accusation of murder.


neptuneblue wrote:
So what?

So it is wrong to say that the hold around his neck continued while he was saying "I can't breathe."


neptuneblue wrote:
Mr. Garner was clearly in distress.

That doesn't make it OK to wrongly state that the hold on his neck continued.


neptuneblue wrote:
That's because at that point, Mr. Garner was rendered unconscious and therefore could not speak.

I'm skeptical of this. But I don't see how it matters either way, so there is no point of wasting energy disputing it.


neptuneblue wrote:
The officer could have performed CPR at that time.

Lots of people could have performed CPR. "Not performing CPR" doesn't make Officer Pantaleo responsible for the EMS' inactivity.


neptuneblue wrote:
The office also had two lawsuits filed against him for false arrest, and continued to harass Mr. Garner

This does not change the reality that it wasn't Officer Pantaleo's fault that the EMS was inactive in their treatment of Mr. Garner.


neptuneblue wrote:
Again, it was clear Mr. Garner was already in distress.

That does not change the reality that there was no hold around his neck at this time.


neptuneblue wrote:
Choke-holds are illegal.

That is incorrect. They are not forbidden by any statute.
glitterbag
 
  4  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2019 02:01 am
@oralloy,
okie dokey, just what do you think a homicide is?????? Never mind, I don't really want a better explanation of how you define morality or crime or violence. Please keep it to yourself, I'm begging you, I have children and grandchildren, I need to believe in the future.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2019 02:37 am
@glitterbag,
A homicide is when one person kills another person.
Sturgis
 
  2  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2019 01:49 pm
@oralloy,
Do you even know what you write?
So you claim Pantaleo is innocent. You say he didn't murder Mr.Garner. Never did anything wrong. Twice, Mr.Garner's death was ruled to be homicide. By your own words, homicide is one person killing another. So, who killed Mr.Garner? Come on alleged-genius, had to have been someone. If you believe Pantaleo is innocent, then who are you planning to accuse? Who are you going to report to the Staten Island D.A.?
Sturgis
 
  2  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2019 02:04 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
that ist incorrect. They are not forbidden by any statute..


The NYPD banned their use more than 25 years ago.
www.nytimes.com/1993/11/24/nyregion/kelly-bans-choke-holds-by-officers.html

it was because the chokehold is not allowed by officers and is in fact illegal, that some, including the union head, are trying to call it the "seatbelt maneuver" .
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2019 04:19 pm
@Sturgis,
Sturgis wrote:
Do you even know what you write?

Yes.


Sturgis wrote:
So you claim Pantaleo is innocent. You say he didn't murder Mr.Garner. Never did anything wrong.

There is certainly no evidence to support any charges of wrongdoing.


Sturgis wrote:
Twice, Mr.Garner's death was ruled to be homicide. By your own words, homicide is one person killing another. So, who killed Mr.Garner? Come on alleged-genius, had to have been someone.

The group of police officers who wrestled him to the ground.


Sturgis wrote:
If you believe Pantaleo is innocent, then who are you planning to accuse? Who are you going to report to the Staten Island D.A.?

I'm not planning to accuse or report anyone. There is no evidence of any wrongdoing here.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2019 04:21 pm
@Sturgis,
Sturgis wrote:
The NYPD banned their use more than 25 years ago.

I know.

Well, I didn't know the date was 25 years ago, but I knew that they had forbidden their officers from using choke holds at some point.


Sturgis wrote:
it was because the chokehold is not allowed by officers and is in fact illegal, that some, including the union head,

Not illegal. Which statute prohibits choke holds?


Sturgis wrote:
are trying to call it the "seatbelt maneuver".

The video clearly shows Officer Pantaleo starting off with a seat belt maneuver. His arm only goes around the neck after Mr. Garner starts bucking and trying to throw him off.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  3  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2019 07:07 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Sturgis wrote:
It was murder.

There is no evidence to back up this accusation.


It was murder. Should have been convicted of negligent homicide at the very least but the blue line prevails.

Senseless murder at that.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2019 07:37 pm
@McGentrix,
Where is the evidence to back up that accusation?
neptuneblue
 
  4  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2019 07:40 pm
@oralloy,
The evidence is...

He's dead.

oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2019 07:42 pm
@neptuneblue,
That evidence does not back up the accusation of murder.
neptuneblue
 
  3  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2019 08:07 pm
@oralloy,
I disagree.

If Panataleo were NOT an officer of the law, he would have have been charged.
And this is what has people very disturbed at the fact that death by police officers goes unpunished.

Panataleo killed a human being. And there is no punishment.

WTF?
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2019 08:23 pm
@neptuneblue,
neptuneblue wrote:
I disagree.

So the fact that someone is dead is evidence of murder?

If your neighbor dies of cancer are the police going to come and arrest you?


neptuneblue wrote:
If Panataleo were NOT an officer of the law, he would have have been charged.

If he were not an officer of the law, he would not have been arresting a criminal.


neptuneblue wrote:
And this is what has people very disturbed at the fact that death by police officers goes unpunished.

I'm certainly not disturbed that police officers aren't punished when there is no evidence of wrongdoing.


neptuneblue wrote:
Panataleo killed a human being. And there is no punishment.
WTF?

Mr. Garner died from injuries that he sustained in the process of resisting arrest.
neptuneblue
 
  4  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2019 08:36 pm
@oralloy,
This is not a win. It proves how broken our system is. A man died for pulling his arms away from a cop. You call it resisting arrest, I call it excessive harassment.

The issue for me is how far this will go. Is flipping the bird to a cop a call to die? How about an eye roll?

Mr. Garner wasn't doing anything illegal yet he died of an illegal choke-hold from a police officer. It's wrong and you not only condone the action, you cheer it on. That's a ******* problem. A big one.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2019 09:11 pm
@neptuneblue,
neptuneblue wrote:
This is not a win. It proves how broken our system is.

"Not convicting someone when there is no evidence of a crime" looks like "the system working properly" to me.


neptuneblue wrote:
A man died for pulling his arms away from a cop.

He died from injuries that he sustained in the process of struggling against the officers who were arresting him.


neptuneblue wrote:
You call it resisting arrest, I call it excessive harassment.

I do indeed call it resisting arrest.


neptuneblue wrote:
The issue for me is how far this will go. Is flipping the bird to a cop a call to die? How about an eye roll?

There was no deliberate effort to kill Mr. Garner. They were only struggling to subdue him as he resisted arrest.


neptuneblue wrote:
Mr. Garner wasn't doing anything illegal

There are no laws against tax evasion?


neptuneblue wrote:
yet he died of an illegal choke-hold from a police officer.

Which statute forbids choke holds?


neptuneblue wrote:
It's wrong and you not only condone the action, you cheer it on.

I merely point out facts.


neptuneblue wrote:
That's a ******* problem. A big one.

I don't agree that facts are a problem.
neptuneblue
 
  3  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2019 09:24 pm
@oralloy,
I've pointed out facts and evidence. While I'm just one citizen, many see the the injustice of it. It's sad you don't.
 

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