14
   

Obama's executive actions on immigration

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 04:58 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
So they were about to introduce and pass legislation that wasn't authored and didn't exist?

Introduce, yes. Pass, I suspect so.


parados wrote:
Do you know how the legislative process works? You can't vote on something until it is on the calendar. It isn't on the calendar for a vote until it has gone through committee. It can't go through committee until it is on the committee calendar. It can't be on the committee calendar until it has been assigned to the committee. It can't be assigned to the committee unless it has been introduced. It can't be introduced until it is written. Since they hadn't written anything it wasn't about to be introduced.

It was about to be introduced.


parados wrote:
It certainly wasn't about to be passed.

I suspect they would have gotten it passed relatively quickly. We'll never know though.


parados wrote:
You are talking nonsense, oralloy.

I'm merely pointing out facts.


parados wrote:
You are claiming something that didn't exist was going to magically appear if only Obama hadn't made it disappear.

No magic. It would have been introduced just like any other legislation.

Incidentally I don't think Mr. Obama intentionally blocked the moderates. I think he was under a lot of pressure to act unilaterally and didn't realize that he was undercutting the very legislation that he wanted.

That's why I think it might be possible for him to rebuild those burnt bridges if the courts do ultimately strike down his executive orders.


parados wrote:
It's fantasy to argue they were about to introduce legislation let alone pass it.

They were about to introduce it. I think it would have passed fairly easily. There are a lot of Republican leaders who want it to pass so they can be done with the issue.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 05:05 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

No one authored it, and it never existed. Mr. Obama cut off the moderates before they even had an opportunity to introduce the legislation.


they had nothing to introduce

they hadn't written anything

___

was there any documentary evidence that Republican moderates were even considering writing something on the topic of immigration?

parados
 
  4  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 05:33 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
I suspect they would have gotten it passed relatively quickly. We'll never know though.

We will never know if the legislation even existed. There is no record of it existing. There is no evidence anywhere of the legislation existing. All legislation is written prior to it being introduced. If it was about to be introduced then there should be a written document somewhere. But no one has produce any such document. This seems like an excuse for not doing their work. They were going to do it but the dog ate it first.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 06:11 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Quote:
I suspect they would have gotten it passed relatively quickly. We'll never know though.

We will never know if the legislation even existed. There is no record of it existing. There is no evidence anywhere of the legislation existing. All legislation is written prior to it being introduced. If it was about to be introduced then there should be a written document somewhere. But no one has produce any such document. This seems like an excuse for not doing their work. They were going to do it but the dog ate it first.


You are woefully uniformed. There is much journalistic product about the attempt to get a deal. The fact that no deal was done and no bill was written means that no deal was completed and no bill was written, it does not mean that no work was done or that Washington was not at one time close to a deal. Informed people know that in recent years nothing was ever produced as a bill unless a deal was made behind closed doors first. Paul Ryan in fact has made a good bit of news by announcing that as of now the house will go back to regular order, which I am pretty sure we have not seen since the mid 90's, which is what you are talking about.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 11:41 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
was there any documentary evidence that Republican moderates were even considering writing something on the topic of immigration?

"This move would also make it much less likely that we’ll have immigration reform anytime soon. White House officials are often misinformed on what Republicans are privately discussing, so they don’t understand that many in the Republican Party are trying to find a way to get immigration reform out of the way. This executive order would destroy their efforts."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/18/opinion/david-brooks-obama-in-winter.html
MontereyJack
 
  5  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2015 02:19 am
David Brooks does not have a paricularly goood rercord for gtting things right. The GOP had six years to come up with something, asnything, on immigration rerform. They casme up wih nothing. The shot down a bipartisn Senate bill. Then supposedly om of the few "moderte" Repubs left were "talking" vaguely aout doing something. Which they didn't in fct evr do. Six year of Rpublicn stonewalling was unconsionable. If obama waited to the end of his term ther ould still have been no Repub action. He ws right to try to light a fire under thir inert asses. He lso did the humane thing, nd that's not an adjective that ever seemss ro apply to Republicns'
parados
 
  4  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2015 09:23 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The fact that no deal was done and no bill was written means that no deal was completed and no bill was written


That pretty clearly means there was no legislation about to be introduced and passed. The claim was made that the GOP was ready to introduce and pass legislation until Obama acted. You are arguing exactly what I am arguing. There was no legislation ready to be introduced.
parados
 
  4  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2015 09:24 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Republicans are privately discussing


You can't introduce a discussion in either House of congress. You have to have written legislation.

Brooks supports my contention that no legislation was about to be introduced.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2015 09:32 am
@parados,
Quote:
You are arguing exactly what I am arguing. There was no legislation ready to be introduced.


the difference is in the degree that this matters. Also the degree that your wording fairly or unfairly represents the reality of what happened.
parados
 
  4  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2015 09:39 am
@hawkeye10,
Legislation can't be introduced unless it is written. Nothing was written. That is the reality of what happened.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2015 10:19 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
The GOP had six years to come up with something, asnything, on immigration rerform.

They didn't take over the Senate until January 2015.

By the time they had control over the Senate, Mr. Obama had already rushed the announcement of his executive order.


MontereyJack wrote:
If obama waited to the end of his term ther ould still have been no Repub action.

Perhaps. But there was still plenty of time to see what the moderate senators were going to produce after the GOP took control over the Senate. There was no reason why his executive order needed to be announced before the Republicans had control of the Senate.


MontereyJack wrote:
He ws right to try to light a fire under thir inert asses.

He didn't light the fire. He doused it.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2015 10:20 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
Brooks supports my contention that no legislation was about to be introduced.

He confirms that moderate Republicans were preparing to introduce such legislation as soon as the GOP took control of the Senate.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2015 10:32 am
@oralloy,
yuppers

nothing
parados
 
  5  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2015 10:53 am
@oralloy,
I didn't realize the House was part of the Senate. I also didn't realize that the minority party was prevented from introducing legislation. Or maybe I just live in a much different world than you do.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  5  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2015 10:56 am
@oralloy,
No. Brooks says no such thing. He merely says the WH was not privy to GOP discussions. He never once says what the specifics of those discussions were or that legislation was imminent.
Baldimo
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2015 11:07 am
@parados,
The current Congress never got the chance to bring up immigration in any form as Obama signed his EA/EO before the end of Nov. The new Congress wouldn't have been in place until January and Obama didn't want a chance to work on immigration with them. This is Obama's problem. He bends over backwards to get a deal with Iran, but couldn't wait a few months to work with a new Congress.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2015 11:11 am
@parados,
Quote:
He merely says the WH was not privy to GOP discussions.

are you sure it is not that the WH is incompetent?
parados
 
  3  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2015 11:14 am
@Baldimo,
Oralloy claimed there was legislation about to be introduced when Obama issued the EO. You are telling us no such legislation would be introduced for at least 2 months and probably longer. It seems you agree with me that no legislation was about to be introduced and passed.
parados
 
  4  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2015 11:16 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
He merely says the WH was not privy to GOP discussions.

are you sure it is not that the WH is incompetent?

The WH may be incompetent but the WH being incompetent says nothing about the legislation that supposedly was ready to be introduced by the GOP. That is a red herring. Either the GOP had such legislation or they didn't. The Brooks piece doesn't tell us they had such legislation and only mentions the GOP was in discussions.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2015 11:25 am
@parados,
I'm not getting involved in your discussion with Oralloy. I'm simply stating that Obama never gave the new Congress a chance to work with him on anything. The election took place and 2 weeks later he signed his EO/EA. At that point Obama and his admin showed they were not interested in working with the new Congress.

He spent 20 months working with Iran and zero time working his the new Congress.
 

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