Are there any peaceful muslim nations?

@Ionus,

Quote:

Not even close. The ability to lie is in all humans

And when reenforced by their religion it becomes a obligation. You seem to be getting testy that Islam is an evil violent religion that concentrates on the political not the spiritual. And pursues that goal anyway possible.

That's the way it is. And your word games won't change it.

1 Reply

Politics anyone?

Quote:

Islam's Latest Contributions to Peace "Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are harsh
to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" Quran 48:29

2015.03.17 (Golfo, Cameroon) - Sharia advocates on motorbikes fire into a crowd, killing a civilian.
2015.03.16 (Lashkar Gah, Afghanistan) - A woman and child Fare among four people liquidated by a Fedayeen suicide car bomber.
2015.03.16 (Oruzgan, Afghanistan) - A man is murdered in front of his wife and child by religious extremists.
2015.03.15 (Gedo, Somalia) - Six family members, including two children and two women, are slaughtered in their own home by al-Shabaab.
2015.03.15 (Mosul, Iraq) - Nine people are shot in the back of the head for 'betraying the religion of Allah'.
2015.03.14 (Nangarhar, Afghanistan) - Three children are pulled into pieces by fundamentalist bombers.

* Sources for individual incidents can be provided upon request.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

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@Ionus,

Pinky only reads that which he feels will underpin hi biases. Hes really not interested in open discussion or even learning.

Were all guilty, but most of us read the other sides as well.

Tzarist Russia had treated my ancestors (semites) with "convert or die like a dog at our hands'

Catholics and Protestants were so adept at blowing each other to smithereens.
Being a Jew or a Gypsy was not a great career option in the "Christain Third Reich"

Inconveniently located native populations suffered nicely under "civilized" Christian administration.

Pinky sufferes from cultural myopia

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@farmerman,

Quote:

Pinky sufferes from cultural myopia

That is your opinion. I present facts from Islamic literature and actions in the world today.

Now are you going to tell him you have a case of chronic uncontrollable blowholery? And that your arrogance is as transparent as your liberal,PC brainwashing. Either dispute the facts or get out.

http://www.alien-earth.com/images/smileys/kickass.gif

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@vikorr,

Quote:

Ionus wrote:
You applied butchery to one side to engender emotions . It also implies one side is defenseless .
vikorr wrote:
Is butchering an inaccurate word for what is done by all sides during invasions in the era we were talking about?
You're now arguing for arguments sake, right?

You wrote that AFTER I picked you up on it . Who do you think you are fooling by trying to be clever ?

Quote:

And where have I been discussing current terrorism with you, rather than history? Your facetiousness is misplaced.

That is staggering in its blatant dishonesty . Read your own posts . How many of them are designed to shock with tales of current terrorism ?

Where in AUSTRALIA do you work as a journalist ?

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@vikorr,

Quote:

You couldn't rise to the challenge to provide more than a single word (which is accurate but not to your taste) in over 100 of my posts...so now you just keep resorting resort to nonsensical taunting?

Your posts consist in the main of news articles on terrorists attacks . There is no attempt to balance the argument even with regard to the reality that one side must be worse than the other . You have simply set out to shock and then pretend it is nothing but facts . Your bias chose those facts . But you dont think of yourself as a bad or biased person when it is for the Crusade .

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@coldjoint,

If you had understood my post, you would have realised I was admitting they are allowed to lie because of the Qur'an. I have said as much before . Your fear of being wrong is making you err .

Quote:

You seem to be getting testy that Islam is an evil violent religion that concentrates on the political not the spiritual. And pursues that goal anyway possible.

Personally I see Islam as being used by far too many to JUSTIFY their evil frustrated nature . Much the same way as posters here are trying to justify their evil frustrated nature in reacting to Islam . I recommend understanding the causes and address it at its roots . Otherwise each generation will produce more terrorists but the general trend of posting from you and igor is to create more emotional reactions so the issue will become worse .

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@coldjoint,

Quote:

Now are you going to tell him you have a case of chronic uncontrollable blowholery? And that your arrogance is as transparent as your liberal,PC brainwashing. Either dispute the facts or get out

Whereas my insult to your poition was clearly risen from the topic under discussion, your childlike insult (posted in a loverly conservative pink) is besodden with loathing at any worldview that does not coincide with your personal goose-step .

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@farmerman,

http://www.alien-earth.com/images/smileys/funny_meter.gif

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@farmerman,

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Were all guilty, but most of us read the other sides as well.

We are all guilty of such.

That said - as a percentage, very, very few (non-Islamic) westerners have read a single word from the Quran, know little to nothing about what Jihad entails (other than 'holy war'), nor Dhimmitude, and know nothing more about Mohammed than he founded Islam.

So on the subject of this topic - I find your comment highly inaccurate.

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@Ionus,

Quote:

You wrote that AFTER I picked you up on it .

I shouldn't explain context after you nominate it as your one and only example? Umm...wow.

As previously mentioned, hate has numerous signs, and in a thread like this, that engenders passions, is quite easily seen. That you maintain your stance (that I am a hater), but can't provide anything except my statement that war entails butchery...is ridiculous.

Perhaps I shouldn't bother explaining to a person who chooses to indulge in their own certainty of others motivations. It is something I am considering.

vikorr wrote:

And where have I been discussing current terrorism with you, rather than history? Your facetiousness is misplaced.

Ionus wrote:

That is staggering in its blatant dishonesty . Read your own posts . How many of them are designed to shock with tales of current terrorism ?

Keh, everything I said was literally true - I have not discussed current terrorism with you. Your behaviour is descending into ugliness.

Quote:

Your posts consist in the main of news articles on terrorists attacks . There is no attempt to balance the argument even with regard to the reality that one side must be worse than the other . You have simply set out to shock and then pretend it is nothing but facts . Your bias chose those facts . But you dont think of yourself as a bad or biased person when it is for the Crusade .

The subject I have been discussing (leading on from the OP's question), as I have made very clear in many of my posts, is my opinion that Islam contributes to violence in it's name, and that it is a dangerous ideology.

Farmerman made the comment that most people try to educate themselves on both sides of the argument...my experience is the vast majority of westerners, on this subject, do not do that...

...and I have made the complaint numerous times that people indulge in wilful ignorance on the breadth, frequency, and severity of violence in Islam's name. The best way to overcome this wilful blindness is not through argument, but through examples. In the face of such wilful ignorance, posting real life events as example is a legitimate course of action to take.

The other complaint I make is that people do not wish to judge a religious ideology (other than Christianity) on it's own merits, and such people use comparison of a few events in history as excuse to ignore the outcomes of the Islamic ideology...this too can be somewhat addressed through posting violent events occurring due to (largely contributed to by) the ideology of Islam

Every ideology can be judged on it's own merits - which is the only unbiased way of judging an ideology...not a single person has yet found fault with this. Comparison serves very little purpose except perhaps to place where in the scale of severity a thing is...it serves little purpose when trying to determine if religious ideology contributes to violence in that religions name.

Were I saying 'the Crusades weren't evil' you would have a case for hypocrisy on my part...but I readily admit the attrocities committed in the crusades and inquisition were evil....and even as I do...such has no bearing on whether or not Islam contributes to violence in it's name, or is dangerous in it's own right.

Your assessment of my motivations...is a know-it-all attitude speaking in ignorance.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

Quote:

Quote:
Ionus Wrote: You wrote that AFTER I picked you up on it .
I shouldn't explain context after you nominate it as your one and only example? Umm...wow.

Do your explanations come with an explanation because you aren't making sense, just appearing confused .

You engender hate deliberately by your posts of violence . Or did you think they were a moderates attempt to explain Islam ? That you doubt your own ability to hate is not matched by your posts but simply by you saying you are not a hater . Why are you encouraging hate ? Where have you conceded any points to the other side ? You want people to hate Islam now grow up and admit it .

Where are the good points to Islam ? According to you it has none, or you would have listed some of them . If it has no good points, then aren't we right to hate it ?

You make a big thing of Islamic ideology and present yourself as knowledgeable on the topic but not knowledgeable enough to know that a Holy Book, be it the Torah, Koran or Bible can, like any human being, be tortured to say anything .

Have you ever met a good Muslim or was it only at the morgue ?

My assessment of your attitude is based on: not a single post of moderation has come from you or an attempt to help correct the problem but simply to inflame passions with shock and horror . Where is the good side to Islam Mr Unbiased ?

1 Reply

@Ionus,

Ah yes...so observing patterns of violence in the name of Islam, right around the world...well, only a hater could do that Rolling Eyes

And to actually have the gall to link evidence of violence in the name of Islam... to a world that does it's best to ignore such...well, that too must be hateful Rolling Eyes

It's ludicrous to claim that documenting evidence = hate

Quote:

Where are the good points to Islam ? According to you it has none, or you would have listed some of them . If it has no good points, then aren't we right to hate it ?

The topic at hand is whether or not it inspires violence in it's name, or is dangerous... you cannot use the peaceful aspects to determine whether or not such claims are true.

The peaceful aspects are relevant once you wish to judge the religion as a whole (in terms of the violence vs the peace)

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Where have you conceded any points to the other side ?

Numerous acknowledgements of the evils committed during the crusades & inquisition...including acknowledging such to you.

See below also.

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My assessment of your attitude is based on: not a single post of moderation has come from you

Moderating Posts from me, from pages 15 (or so)where I started, up to 32, where I stopped looking:

Hello CI, I have already posted that the majority of muslims are peaceful. I can post the link to that statement, should you wish.

Yes, CI, all of these issues are a real problem. All of them (when generically based) are found in the lead up to many wars.

That's not totally true Hawkeye - I don't have the timeframes, but Islamic nations were at one stage, and for quite some time, were leading centres for learning, culture, and architecture (if not the leading centres).

Any thread like this should have people for, against, curious, and/or fence sitting. I think CI's posts are fine.

Hence, each should be judged on it's own merits. And the evils of one should never be used as excuse of the evils of the other. Evil isn't acceptable in either.

One thing few people have understood - although I believe my perspective to be correct, I'm also quite happy to be proven wrong, so long as:

I would suggest you look into economic tyranny. Although I criticise Islam, the current form of economic ideology arguably results in millions more deaths in it's name, compared to deaths from violence in Islam's name.

The only two Presidents that have been assasinated have been anti-US presidents (even while the majority of the population dislikes the US). There's a book called 'Clash of Fundamentalisms by Tariq Ali - a very articulate muslim (unfortunately who's hatred for the US he found impossible to repress), who's book first alerted me to this little fact.

Duh - didn't I say I'm happy for you to hold a different opinion - so long as you actually start finding out what you are talking about, and look at it with an open mind.

I think, One Eyed Mind, that we must have a different opinion of people:
- I think we all have strengths & weaknesses, myself included. CI, Parados and all others without doubt have strengths that I don't possess...and visa versa.
- we all have a different journey, and leads us to different beliefs at different stages of our life
- we all learn at a different rate
- etc

In other words - that people disagree with me is quite okay.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I previously mentioned - your know-it-all attitude regarding other peoples motivations, is made in dreadful ignorance.

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@vikorr,

Quote:

And to actually have the gall to link evidence of violence in the name of Islam... to a world that does it's best to ignore such...well, that too must be hateful

So that evidence was compiled by yourself..you didnt find any in the public media...Wow! How do you know the world is unaware of terrorism and "does its best to ignore such"...I find it discussed by lots of people . "Your know-it-all attitude regarding other peoples motivations, is made in dreadful ignorance." Recognise those words ?

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It's ludicrous to claim that documenting evidence = hate

You are providing media references yet claim you are some sort of Crusader getting evidence, perhaps for a Police inquiry or a court . You are more like a Nazi telling us Jews are bad .

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The topic at hand is whether or not it inspires violence in it's name, or is dangerous..

I see the problem..you don't know what the topic is...

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Are there any peaceful muslim nations?

is the topic . Now there might be none, but that would not equate to a condemnation of Islam because being nations they do things for different reasons . Are there any peaceful Christian nations ? What are we defining as peaceful ? Is it inherently part of being a nation to be aggressive ? Economically, militarily, religiously, the list is long as to what might constitute aggression .

Quote:

Moderating Posts from me

A very minor matter, but do you mean moderating or moderate ?

Quote:

your know-it-all attitude regarding other peoples motivations, is made in dreadful ignorance.

What a waste of words . you could have told me what your motivation is unless it is solely to "document evidence" for some future trial by media sources . You say I am wrong ? Tell me what your attitude to the religion Islam is...

1 Reply

@vikorr,

Ok, I have read ALL your posts, and whilst your language is moderate your opinion is anything but moderate . It is clear you wish to create the opinion in others of Islam being violent as opposed to Islamists . You wish to create feelings of fear or rage . In Australia, every terrorist attempt has been thwarted by Muslims, with the exception of the latest attack where they had several phone calls warning them but could not or would not respond in time . Where is your "evidence" for the good Muslims if you are without Bias ?

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Where have you conceded any points to the other side ?

vikorr wrote:

Numerous acknowledgements of the evils committed during the crusades & inquisition...including acknowledging such to you.

Having based your assessment on this fallacy, you now have nothing to say about it

Ionus wrote:

My assessment of your attitude is based on: not a single post of moderation has come from you

vikorr's list of examples here

Ionus wrote:

A very minor matter, but do you mean moderating or moderate ?

Moderating is the verb, moderate is the Noun.

Having based your assessment on a further fallacy, you now have nothing to say about it

Having provided the only 'example' of denigration being the use of the word butchery in relation to killing residents of countries that Muslims invaded....you cannot accept 'butchery' as accurate.

Quote:

you are providing media references yet claim you are some sort of Crusader getting evidence, perhaps for a Police inquiry or a court .

Quote:

You are more like a Nazi telling us Jews are bad .

Having lost out on all your other claims that you base your belief of hate on ###, you attempt to say that linking evidence of violence in the name of Islam is akin to Nazi tactics. The further attempts at demonisation are obvious.

You do realise, that I could make a much better case for you hating me, than you could ever make for your irrational belief that I hate muslims?

Distaste for the religion of Islam, now that would be an acceptable and true accusation. I cannot support a religion that has so much documentation encouraging intolerance, non-integration, and violence. The amount of violence in it's name that it contributes to - well, that needs to be acknowledged by people.

But hate...well, that's obviously just the way you would personally react to such a thing. You then project your own inadequacies onto others, and even when shown the numerous flaws in the foundation of your belief, cling tenaciously and hatefully to them....would you by now like me to compile a list of quotes of your hate tactics?

1 Reply

@Ionus,

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Ok, I have read ALL your posts, and whilst your language is moderate

about time.

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is moderate your opinion is anything but moderate

It is accurate, to the best of my knowledge.

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It is clear you wish to create the opinion in others of Islam being violent as opposed to Islamists

Islamists are a part of Islam, and not a sufficiently small enough part (eg. The muslim brotherhood in Egypt had 2 million members, if I recall right)...that you even mention Islamists shows you understand this. As I've mentioned numerous times in this thread - my opinion is that the religion contributes to violence in it's name, and is dangerous. That last only requires that the religion lead to the creation of enough danger, to be dangerous. What constitutes 'enough danger' is of course subjective.

Quote:

You wish to create feelings of fear or rage

This is your own projection again. What I wish is for people to look at the evidence, ask whether or not Islam contributes to it (enough that they'd actually research it for themselves), and make up their own mind. I can quote numerous times in this thread where I've said this.

The only way I can see to achieve this, is to keep posting links to examples of violence in Islam's name until people become curious enough to look into the causes (argument, as shown, doesn't help much to achieve this)

Quote:

Where is your "evidence" for the good Muslims if you are without Bias ?

Did you not see the link where I said 'most are peaceful'? It should without saying, after having said that, that 'most are good' (to a somewhat comparable level of good elsewhere). I'm not sure if I've previously discussed the Bell Curve, and how it would apply to this.

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
the U.S. froze Japanese assets in the U.S. on 26 July 1941 and on 1 August established an embargo on oil and gasoline exports to Japan.[11] The oil embargo was an especially strong response because oil was Japan's most crucial import, and more than 80 percent of Japan's oil at the time came from the United States....The U.S. embargoes gave Japan a sense of urgency. It would either have to agree to Washington's demands or use force to gain access to the resources it needed.

In their final proposal, on 20 November, Japan offered to withdraw their forces from southern Indochina and not to launch any attacks in southeast Asia provided that the U.S., Britain, and the Netherlands ceased aiding China and lifted their sanctions against Japan

Read the above.

A fine moral act on our part. We had no intention of letting our resources be used to fuel Japan's genocide of their neighbors.

Ionus wrote:

Which part is nonsense ?

The part where you say that our refusal to back Japan's genocides was a threat to Japan's survival.

1 Reply

@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Ionus wrote:
750 years of neighbours fighting goes way past simple conquest.

Not when it is 750 years of one side invading the territory of the other side.

Rubbish.

It is a fact that Muslims invaded Roman territory, and it is a fact that all their subsequent fights (including all of the Crusades) took place on that Roman territory.

Ionus wrote:

During that time they were allied, had truces, wars were started by both sides,

The fact remains, all of their conflicts took place within territory that belonged to the Roman Empire.

Ionus wrote:

your knowledge is either limited or you are just a hater.

You might want to actually find some facts that I am wrong about before you start slinging accusations about levels of knowledge.

Falsely accusing me of hate does not make it OK for Muslims to kill people and steal their land.

Ionus wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Ionus wrote:
If two Christian nations go at it for a hundred years, say France and England, do you have the high moral ground to work out who is evil and who is Godly?

I do not require high moral ground in order to work out who is right and who is wrong. But yes, I am in fact capable of working such things out.

Your bias has no limits then.

I do not use bias to determine right and wrong. I base such determinations on facts and logic.

Ionus wrote:

oralloy wrote:
The land of Israel belongs to the Jews.

So there is no problem if the Muslims take it off the Christians, is there ?

There is a considerable problem with Muslims keeping Israel for themselves instead of handing it back to its rightful Jewish owners.

Ionus wrote:

Who did the Jews take it off of ?

No one. The Jews are the original owners.

Ionus wrote:

oralloy wrote:
The Byzantine Empire was the remnants of the Roman Empire after Muslims stole much of their territory.

Rubbish.

It's a basic historical fact.

After Muslims captured much of the territory of the Roman Empire, the remainder of the Roman Empire continued as the Byzantine Empire.

Ionus wrote:

Unbelievable simplification

Facts are usually simple. The problems come when facts are inconvenient.

Ionus wrote:

due to a total lack of knowledge of the differences between the two.

I know enough to realize that the Byzantine Empire was the remnants of the Roman Empire after Muslims stole much of their land.

Ionus wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Ionus wrote:
Anyone but the Muslims.

Correct. None of the Roman Empire belonged to Muslims.

But it belonged to the Romans....

I am sympathetic to any claims that native people make regarding territory that Romans stole from them (note my previous commentary on Israel).

I would also be sympathetic to a move to drive all the Muslims out of Egypt and restore the nation to worship of Ra and other proper Egyptian deities.

Ionus wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Ionus wrote:
How many large cities were destroyed by Islam?

Don't know. Does it matter?

In any comparison between the Roman conquests and the Muslim conquests, yes, it does matter.

I wasn't comparing Roman conquests with Muslim conquests, so perhaps that's why I don't see the relevance.

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@oralloy,

Quote:

The fact remains, all of their conflicts took place within territory that belonged to the Roman Empire

Notice the operating word is ROMAN EMPIRE. Now was the EMPIRE achieved in a large land deal?
Im gonna say no.

1 Reply

Are there any peaceful muslim nations?

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