Wonderful thread, thank you, littlek, for beginning this.
Someone on our old stomping grounds at abuzz thinks that extramarital affairs are the prime, even sole, cause for divorce. The funny thing is -- and I don't live that far from littlek -- is I have had more than one conversation with acquaintances about extra marital affairs and in our small town, they are extremely limited. When one happens, however, everyone talks about it. It's such an anomoly!
People mostly say they are too busy for affairs. They wonder how you can pay enough attention to a job, a house, a spouse, kids, etc., and have any time or energy left over for a lover!
For my part, I am monogamous by nature. I could never have sex with two men at the same time . . . well, maybe two men together . . . just kidding!
Frankly, when I was in graduate school, which I partly started to take care of my agoraphobia that had its roots in my terrible marriage, I had a crush on a professor . . . whose marriage was weakening and would eventually be dissolved. My husband knew it and thought it would perk up our failing sex life if he used memories of this man as a sort of flint to set off sparks. It embarrassed me profoundly.
However, the crush on the professor, being as sofia would recognize, so out of character for me, allowed me to see things that two bouts of psychosomatic illnesses (rashes; indigestion) failed to illumine.
the professor's life actually improved. He's tenured at an Ivy League college and had his wife not thrown a tantrum about living in Georgia, and had he not given up a tenured post there to please her, they both would have remained miserable.
I am ultimately happy that I found him so attractive. My crush short cut a great deal of misery for both me and my children. My former husband, by the way, does not speak to our older son and barely speaks to our daughter. She initiates contact. While my life has been a disaster in terms of a career and my ability to earn a living, my former husband turned sex into a battle ground and made money by signing my name to loans as though he had the power of attorney I would never have given him.
The ironic thing is that I know he had a one night stand, which he still vehemently denies. It may actually have been a short affair, but I think it was only a business trip fling. I can forgive that more easily than the borrowing of money on the house, cashing the kids savings bonds, the temper and the cruelty.
I'm still struck by Relative's reply. Do any of you think that sex is given too much blame as a betayal compared to other behaviors?
To me, sex is sometimes a religious obsession that overshadows other, more serious betrayals in marriage. Admittedly, sex is an act that involves so many emotions and is an act that results in intense feelings of pleasure; but there are unobtrusive little betrayals that can be as destructive. Even acts that appear to be minor can be devastating, such as a spouse being dismissed as unimportant or being treated with condescension or patronized to the point of being destroyed emotionally. In a way, it can be compared to physical abuse over emotional abuse. Sometimes the emotional abuse can rip apart a person's self-esteem as quickly as physical abuse.
Isn't sex just one of many forms of betrayal that shouldn't be considered more damaging or, if you are religious, more sinful, than others?
One more point--Emotional abuse, everyday for years, imo, seems far more damaging than an affair.
Diane wrote:I'm still struck by Relative's reply. Do any of you think that sex is given too much blame as a betayal compared to other behaviors?
I think plainoldme echoed the same thing, eg in her last paragraph.
I dunno, myself. The comparison of physical vs emotional abuse seems right tho. Just like if you'd hit somebody, the moment you sleep with someone else, its such a concrete thing, you just
know, somewhere, that you've crossed a line. Did something that, no matter what rationalisations or mitigating circumstances may be appropriate, is really not fair. Whereas the other stuff, from a partner being (or feeling) dismissed to outright demeaning emotional abuse - there's few such clear markers. Its all a gliding scale, all caught up in mutual recriminations and conflicting perceptions of "what really happened" and who did what. What I felt as being taken use of, my gf might have felt as emotional self-defense. What my gf felt as being betrayed, I may have felt as a struggle to not be bullied into losing myself. When you cheat, you can rationalise
why you did it and why it was thus perhaps justified, or even for the better - but the cheating itself is pretty much uncontested.
doglover wrote:I think affairs (if you are married) are a form of betrayal for sure. However, I don't think people who engage in extra-marital affairs are any more decietful than people who cheat on their taxes, call into work sick when they aren't, accept too much change from a clerk in a store,
Well, the impact's a bit more serious, no? I can't remember my taxman last feeling wounded and humiliated.
(actually, i dont think i ever cheated on my taxes, but thaz besides the point i guess ;-))
There's some good thinking going on in this thread.
Deceit in any form is horrible.
Remember, marriage was instituted because the identity of the mother is obvious but not the identity of the father. The idea behind marriage is sexual continence.
It is true that people have had extramarital affairs for as long as there has been marriage. People have lied and cheated probably before there was language to express lies.
It can be hard on a partner when one member of the marriage has a friend, esp a friend of the opposite sex, no matter how innocent the friendship. As I believe either Diane or doglover said, there are many levels of betrayal.
All my good friends are girls, so I've tended to attract the kind of girlfriend who doesnt feel too easily threatened by the mere presence of another girl ...
That's probably why I picked up on the "emotional affairs" thing from the stat little k originally cited, actually. What is a non-sexual "emotional affair"? Find it hard to wrap my mind around that. Well, amorous flirting would freak anyone out, even if its not "consumed", that I can easily see. But friendship comes ungendered, and should imho never be considered 'out of bounds' ...
Doglover, you shouldnt forget I'm one of those pro-tax socialists <winks> ... so I cant bring myself to cheat on my taxes, have to act like I preach, no? :-)
Doglover agrees that affairs can be no more sinful that cheating on taxes, stealing, etc. Then nimh replied that the impact of an affair is much greater. That's the rub, I guess.
An affair affects a person who is in a personal relationship with the cheater, in a serious, personal way. Sex is such an intimate act, exposing so much--physically and emotionally--that betrayal is felt with excrutiating pain. Emotional abuse is just as painful. Other sins/crimes don't have that kind of impact.
As POM said, there is a long history of proof of parenthood that grew into the idea of faithfulness. Interesting that lineage was more important than love. Ego, all is ego.
My son, now 19, learned the hard way that cheating on a girlfriend doesn't pay. He was seeing two girls at once and I warned him about all of the consequences of that and said that the girls knew what was going on and that he had better decide on one or break off both relationships. Well, both girls exploded at him. As the one said, "Why wasn't I enough for you? What is wrong with me that I wasn't enough?"
He hasn't been able to connect with a girl since, and the cheating went on two years ago. He's been lonely: so I hope he's learned his lesson.
Doglover--
I think the problem was the son was cheating. He was being dishonest in his relationships. That is, IMO, a very bad way to start in relationships.
He certainly shouldn't be monogamous if he doesn't want to--but he should be above board with it, instead of lying.
My daughter is having a problem I'd like to get opinions or comments about.
Her boyfriend invited her to a couple of family get togethers--wherein she met his very handsome brother. She has already informed me she knows this is very bad territory for brothers--and has bent over backwards not to introduce gasoline to an existing case of sibling rivalry.
The Very Handsome Brother (VHB) has made several open compliments to daughter, and treats her so deferentially--opening doors, seeing to her needs (just like a very observant host) --that daughter's boyfriend has taken her home early, and is mad at brother.
So far, she has just been polite to VHB--but I'm worried about future get togethers. They had to leave the BBQ early on Memorial Day, because of VHB's excessive attention.
I told her to avoid family get togethers and VHB like the plague. If she doesn't, the brothers (formerly very close, though with your average rivalry) may suffer an irrevocable (sp) blow up. I can't stand girls to ruin brother's relationships.
Any suggestions?
he got caught with two...? i had at one time three or four relationships going at once. i wouldn't see everyone on regular basis but i was at least able to keep em all separate.
Girls do the same thing...i know I had a girl attracted to me who even took me to her boyfriends house into his bedroom and tried to throw me on his bed.
Now tell me that isn't a bit creepy...it works two ways.
sorry...perhaps i saw it differently because i was the "nice guy" that got dumped on repeatedly, turned down etc. over and over again.
I actually turned to be a late starter but i made up ground fairly quickly - LOL
IAN442 wrote:Now tell me that isn't a bit creepy...it works two ways.
Yes ... Some people cheat because they fall in love (or in some deep crush, anyway) -- some people cheat because of the sex -- and then there's some people who (also) get a kick out of the betrayal itself. Could be revenge, doesnt need to be -- people get off on some twisted things.
I personally think that 19 is kind of young to be tied down. Seeing more than one person is fine as long as everyone is on the same page. Unfortunately, that rarely happens and it never fails that someone ends up feeling misled and heartbroken. I think everybody goes through this at some point. Just depends on which role you play.
As far as the young lady caught between the two brothers, that's sounds like a very uncomfortable situation. Staying away from the family doesn't seem to be an option because they sound like social people who expect their family to come together. Boyfriend will want to know why she doesn't want to attend. Can she introduce the brother to a girlfriend or something? Sounds like he's playing games, deliberately courting trouble, and what he needs is to be distracted.
Sofia - tough one. Avoiding VHB seems logical. But if it gets out of hand, she might just have to tell VHB that she doesn't appreciate his advances. Tell him herself, in fact, before it comes down to the brothers themselves to battle it out together.
It may be something between the two brothers already. Basic sibling rivalry. If not this young lady, it would be someone else.
