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1 in 5 women get raped?

 
 
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2014 08:20 pm
With the obligatory disclaimer that I am against rape, and that I think that reasonable steps to make campuses and society more safe are good.

The "1 in 5" figure being thrown around is scientific fiction.

The number is based on a flawed study in many aways.

1. The study was done one time, with no follow up.
2. The sample was taken from a very limited population (students on two college campuses) that was not representative of the society at large.
3. The study had a very low response rate. This greatly increases uncertainty because if people who were assaulted are more likely to respond to the study then the numbers are inaccurate. It isn't unreasonable to think that people who were victimized might be more likely to respond and people who weren't victims would be more likely to ignore it.
4. A woman would be counted as part of the 20% if someone had "rubbed up against her" in a sexual way.

Yet, the 1 in 5 women figure, based on a single, politically motivated, scientifically flawed study is now religious truth. It is thrown at you anytime there is any questioning of feminism, and daring to question it brings accusations of "supporting rape".

Rape is clearly an important issue. We should certainly be having a public discussion to address it and to make campus and society at large more safe.

What is wrong with a balanced discussion based on facts, rather than dogma and propaganda?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 25 • Views: 71,764 • Replies: 2,287

 
One Eyed Mind
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2014 08:37 pm
You forgot the part where they said "might be 1 in 5 or 1 in 4".

That was already enough evidence to conclude that they hadn't a clue what they were claiming.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  4  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2014 08:39 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
What is wrong with a balanced discussion based on facts, rather than dogma and propaganda?


You're quite the hypocrite, Max. Your lifeblood is dogma and propaganda.
One Eyed Mind
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2014 08:47 pm
@JTT,
Go ahead, the spotlight is yours.

What is Max's dogma?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2014 08:40 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
What is wrong with a balanced discussion based on facts, rather than dogma and propaganda?



What's wrong with sources and links to back up what you're saying.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2014 09:11 am
@izzythepush,
There are no valid sources or links for the claim that 1 in 5 women get raped. That's the point.

I can't give you sources or links to evidence that doesn't exist.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2014 09:43 am
@maxdancona,
So you've just made it up.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2014 09:53 am
@izzythepush,
Yes... I just made up the figure that "1 in 5 women get raped". It is clearly a bogus figure. Seeing as there is no valid scientific study (other than political motivated propaganda) and I don't have any sources or evidence to support the claim that "1 in 5 women are raped", I suppose I will just drop it.

I am glad that's settled. Let's move on.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2014 10:01 am
@maxdancona,
I've never heard it before. You come up with a load of unsourced nonsense about a figure you seem to have plucked out of the air only to rubbish it.

At the very least you could try giving an example of someone other than yourself using that figure.

I don't know what you're trying to do here. Do you want to place a cap on women reporting rape?

Instead of moaning about statistics we should be trying to reduce rape, not complaining because you think too many women might be reporting it.
Lordyaswas
 
  4  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2014 10:28 am
One in Five Chip Shop Managers are Elvis.
farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2014 10:49 am
@Lordyaswas,
4 out of 5 people believe that 80% of adult humans believe as they do.
0 Replies
 
Lordyaswas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2014 10:56 am
I've found my link to prove it.....


firefly
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2014 02:55 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The "1 in 5" figure being thrown around is scientific fiction.

The number is based on a flawed study in many aways.

1. The study was done one time, with no follow up.
2. The sample was taken from a very limited population (students on two college campuses) that was not representative of the society at large.
3. The study had a very low response rate. This greatly increases uncertainty because if people who were assaulted are more likely to respond to the study then the numbers are inaccurate. It isn't unreasonable to think that people who were victimized might be more likely to respond and people who weren't victims would be more likely to ignore it.
4. A woman would be counted as part of the 20% if someone had "rubbed up against her" in a sexual way.

There's not a word of truth in what you have said.

There are decades of research on rape statistics, and methods of gathering data have continually been improved and refined. To say the statistics come from a single study is nothing more than a display of blatant ignorance. And you don't even bother to cite the source for the single study you seem to have problems with.

Try educating yourself by reading one of the most recent and ongoing national surveys--which disputes all of your assertions-- and then critique what you see as the methodological flaws in this study.
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf

In addition, since December 2011, the Justice Department has changed its outdated definition of rape, which had been in use since 1927, and which excluded many cases classified as rape on the state level.
Quote:
In a victory for survivors of rape and their advocates, the Attorney General announced a newly revised definition of rape for nationwide data collection, ensuring that rape will be more accurately reported nationwide.

The change sends an important message to all victims that what happens to them matters, and to perpetrators that they will be held accountable. It was because of the voices of survivors, advocates, law enforcement personnel and many others that FBI Director Robert Mueller was able to make this important change within the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report (UCR) Summary Reporting System (SRS).

“Forcible rape” had been defined by the UCR SRS as “the carnal knowledge of a female, forcibly and against her will.” That definition, unchanged since 1927, was outdated and narrow. It only included forcible male penile penetration of a female vagina.

The new definition is:

“The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

For the first time ever, the new definition includes any gender of victim and perpetrator, not just women being raped by men. It also recognizes that rape with an object can be as traumatic as penile/vaginal rape. This definition also includes instances in which the victim is unable to give consent because of temporary or permanent mental or physical incapacity.

Furthermore, because many rapes are facilitated by drugs or alcohol, the new definition recognizes that a victim can be incapacitated and thus unable to consent because of ingestion of drugs or alcohol. Similarly, a victim may be legally incapable of consent because of age. The ability of the victim to give consent must be determined in accordance with individual state statutes. Physical resistance is not required on the part of the victim to demonstrate lack of consent.

The UCR is the national “report card” on serious crime; what gets reported through the UCR is how we, collectively, view crime in this country. Police departments submit data on reported crimes and arrests to the UCR SRS. Even though most states have more expansive definitions of rape in their criminal codes, they had to report the smaller number of crimes falling under the more narrow UCR SRS definition. This meant that the statistics that were reported nationally were both inaccurate and undercounted.

Because the new definition is more inclusive, reported crimes of rape are likely to increase. This does not mean that rape has increased, but simply that it is more accurately reported. In addition, the UCR program will also collect data based on the historical definition of rape, enabling law enforcement to track consistent trend data until the statistical differences between the old and new definitions are more fully understood.

The new UCR SRS definition of rape does not change Federal or state criminal codes or impact charging and prosecution on the Federal, State or local level, it simply means that rape will be more accurately reported nationwide.


So now our national crime statistics should better reflect crimes of rape, since they will be more in line with state definitions which have been in use for some time.
Quote:

Rape is clearly an important issue. We should certainly be having a public discussion to address it and to make campus and society at large more safe.

That discussion has been ongoing for many years--you seem to have missed it.
Quote:
What is wrong with a balanced discussion based on facts, rather than dogma and propaganda?

There's nothing wrong with that--you just seem unable to do that. You cite no facts, and spout only dogma and propaganda.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2014 03:15 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Try educating yourself by reading one of the most recent and ongoing national surveys--which disputes all of your assertions-- and then critique what you see as the methodological flaws in this study.


Try educating yourself Firefly. It is easy for you, or for a political motivated scientific study, to dispute anything.

But, the CDC study(which was recently released) is equally flawed. They are clearly broadening the definition of rape for political motivation. This can hardly be considered a scientifically valid study.

Consider the questions they asked...

Quote:
How many people have you had vaginal, oral, or anal sex with after they pressured you by…

• doing things like telling you lies, making promises about the future they knew were untrue, threatening to end your relationship, or threatening to spread rumors about you?
• wearing you down by repeatedly asking for sex, or showing they were unhappy?
• using their influence or authority over you, for example, your boss or your teacher?


By this standard (repeatedly asking for sex) I am a rape victim. Speaking as an alleged rape victim, I don't think it is a valid standard.

There are a couple of other things about this study that make any science minded person cringe. First of all, it is very difficult to find the raw data on what people actually answered in this questionnaire, or more importantly how the follow-up responses for people who didn't initially respond.

The people who actually measure crime statistics (and don't include lying to get sex as part of the definition of rape) come up with a much lower number. But they probably don't have the same political motivation to inflate statistics.

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=245
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2014 03:16 pm
@maxdancona,
I would love to see the raw data for responses to the CDC study (i.e. how people actually responded to each question... rather than the researchers interpretation).

Any real scientific study will publish these numbers. Can you find them?
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2014 05:36 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The people who actually measure crime statistics (and don't include lying to get sex as part of the definition of rape) come up with a much lower number. But they probably don't have the same political motivation to inflate statistics.

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=245


You think the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) are more accurate than the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS)? Rolling Eyes

The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) is an annual data collection conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau for the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS)--that's where the BJS gets it's statistics. Laughing

How does the NCVS actually define rape as apart from other sexual assaults? Can you cite the actual definition they use, along with a link and a page reference, since you claim to know how they define rape?

All you're doing is tossing around BS, and citing no studies to dispute the 1 in 5 number (which includes attempted rapes as well as completed rapes), and choosing to ignore all the studies, including the NCVS survey, that support it.

The people who do measure crime statistics, the Justice Department, changed their definition of rape two years ago because they recognized it was extremely outdated, and resulted in inaccurate and underreported national numbers, given the state definitions of rape that had been in use for some time. And they anticipate that the number of rapes reported to them will now increase--because the figures will be more accurate. And that's only for the small percentage of rapes actually reported to law enforcement.

And you cite no valid evidence that all of the many studies, that have produced similar rape statistics, have been politically motivated "to inflate statistics". You're accusing these researchers of serious unethical conduct if that's the case, and I'm sure it would have been noticed by someone other than you. And given that you claim an inability to even find the studies, your assertions are laughable.
Quote:
What is wrong with a balanced discussion based on facts, rather than dogma and propaganda?

Try it, you're still spouting nothing but dogma and propaganda.
Quote:
The "1 in 5" figure being thrown around is scientific fiction.

The number is based on a flawed study in many aways.

1. The study was done one time, with no follow up.
2. The sample was taken from a very limited population (students on two college campuses) that was not representative of the society at large.
3. The study had a very low response rate. This greatly increases uncertainty because if people who were assaulted are more likely to respond to the study then the numbers are inaccurate. It isn't unreasonable to think that people who were victimized might be more likely to respond and people who weren't victims would be more likely to ignore it.
4. A woman would be counted as part of the 20% if someone had "rubbed up against her" in a sexual way.


You still haven't shown there is a word of truth in what you have said.



izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2014 05:39 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
By this standard (repeatedly asking for sex) I am a rape victim.


You're definitely a victim of something.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2014 05:46 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
You think the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) are more accurate than the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS)? Rolling Eyes


BJS in its NCVS wrote:
The percentage of reported rape or sexual assault victimizations that resulted in an arrest either at the scene or during a follow-up investigation decreased from 47 percent in 1994-98 to 31 percent in 2005-10. Overall, out of the 283,200 annual average rape or sexual assault victimizations in 2005-10, both reported and not reported to the police, approximately 12 percent resulted in an arrest.


I love irony.

The NCVS is published by the Burau of Justice Statistics. They refer to the same number (which is much lower than the CDC number).

As you see, the BJS (in the NCVS) reporsts that there are 283,200 annual cases of rape or sexual assault. This number is both for reported and unreported cases.

This is significantly lower than the nearly 2 million rapes a year in the CDC report. The reason is obvious.

- The NCVS survey asks, "were you the victim of rape or sexual assault"?

- The CDC survey asks, "did someone repeatedly bother you to have sex with them"?



maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2014 05:52 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

maxdancona wrote:
By this standard (repeatedly asking for sex) I am a rape victim.


You're definitely a victim of something.


Don't you oppress me!

(For the humor impaired, this is a Monty Python reference).
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2014 05:54 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:

This is significantly lower than the CDC report. The reason is obvious.

- The NCVS survey asks, "were you the victim of rape or sexual assault"?

- The CDC survey asks, "did someone repeatedly bother you to have sex with them"?

Where are the links and page citations for their definitions of the term rape?
Are you averse to providing actual factual information?

 

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