25
   

1 in 5 women get raped?

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2016 09:50 pm
@momoends,
Momoends, you are making stuff up.

1) There is a legitimate debate about whether the 1 in 5 statistic is scientifically valid or not. I have listed several times the reasons why I (and many other people) believe that these studies are invalid.

The reasons these studies are invalid include a failure to account for selection bias and poorly worded questions that don't actually ask women if they are rape victims, as well as political pressure for a particular result on a study that wasn't peer reviewed.

2) No one here believes that women are inferior. Not me. Not you. This is completely an irrelevant straw man. No one here has said that "feminists are egoist radical and heartless individals". This is also a straw man.

I want to have an intelligent discussion on the first point. I can't argue the second point because you and I agree that women are equal to men and that feminists care about abused children.

Why don't you discuss the points I am actually making (rather than inventing your own points).
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2016 09:55 pm
@maxdancona,
This thread illustrates how a political ideology operates. The ideology must not be questioned. When someone raises factual questions about the narrative, rather than discussing the facts and reasoning the questioner is attacked.

I have clearly articulated the reasons I question this particular narrative. Let's discuss them.
momoends
 
  3  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2016 10:00 pm
@maxdancona,
tell me about that political ideology
second (again): different results from different sources that proves those statistics are fairly close to the reality you accuses me of raising factual questions about narrative, how can i have a logical discussion on that premisses?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2016 10:15 pm
@momoends,
Your last post didn't make any sense to me (I realize that this discussion is in my language, not yours. I can be patient, or you can repeat that in Spanish if you like).

I have listed my points very clearly. I have even numbered them. I am fully prepared to provide more facts for each one. Maybe you could do the same, or you could question any one of my points rather than making these random statements about things I have never said.

Mi queja es que estas inventando cosas que no creo y que he dicho. Tu puedes refutar un argumento que actualmente he hecho, pero no es justo que me atribuyes una postura que no es mía. Es un hombre de paja.

momoends
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2016 09:11 am
@maxdancona,
te pedia que me explicaras esa ideología política que parece ser manipula el resultado de cualquier resultado estadístico invalidando en tu opinion totalmente, porque difícilmente puede manipular los datos de fuentes independientes
un resultado estadístico no puede considerarse no científico, puedes alegar que esta manipulado o es incompleto pero no "no científico"
por ultimo, te decía que es imposible mantener una discusión lógica como pides cuando la única razón que alegas para argumentar es que todos los estudios son incorrectos .... y ya esta, tus datos o hechos no son incorrectos pero los demás si... ????
(no existe la expresión "hombre de paja" en castellano)
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2016 09:30 am
@momoends,
There are two different issues here.

1) I am pointing out that there is no valid scientific study that supports the claim that "1 in 5 women are raped". This claim is a factual claim... it is either correct or it is incorrect. The evidence is that it is incorrect. Even the researchers of one of the oft-cited studies point out that their research doesn't actually support the claim. see http://time.com/3633903/campus-rape-1-in-5-sexual-assault-setting-record-straight/

This first point is a factual claim. If you want to dispute it, the best way is for you to give me a specific source that supports this fallacious claim and we can discuss whether it is valid or not using facts.

2) I am also point out that this fallacious "1 in 5" or "1 in 6" is cited all of the time by politicians and activists. My claim is that this number is propaganda to support a political narrative.

I don't like when a political ideology is more important than facts.

The first point is a factual claim that these oft-cited statistics are false (i.e. not supported by actual valid research). The second point is my opinion that the reason these false statistics are being used for political propaganda.

You should separate these two points. If you are going to argue the first point, then tell me which "sources" you think are valid. This is a factual argument.

If you are going to argue the second point... this is more of a matter of opinion, although I would like you to explain whether it is OK to use unproven statistics to support political policy.
momoends
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 05:03 pm
@maxdancona,
Ok, so if i tell you that at the age of 20 we were a group of 8 Friends and 6 of them had already gone at least through 2 abussive experiencies and i have known every year of my life at least one new friend that had been serously abused...... What would you think?
Lets do one thing: ask 10 women you know to tell you how many times the y have been touched unapropietly in the ir lifes
Anyway, i asked you to tell me about that ideology i seem to be influenced by
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 05:49 pm
@momoends,
This is what I mean by ideology. You have a narrative that you believe. You then accept all of the evidence (even if it is incorrect) that supports your narrative. You reject or ignore all of the evidence that goes against your narrative (even if it is correct).

The problem with ideology is that what you believe is more important than evidence or facts.

You will note that I am not doing that. There have been several things that I have agreed with you because your point was supported by facts. There are many areas in which I agree with feminists. Is there a single point where you agree with men's rights, or accept than men are disadvantaged in any way? Ideology is always one sided.

Your latest argument is a logical fallacy of course. The fact that 80% of women you know have been abused doesn't mean that 80% of women in general have been abused (any more than the fact that more than 80% of people I know think that Tom Brady was horribly cheated means anything). This is a matter that we choose to be with people with whom we have common experiences and interests. You can't extrapolate to assume that everyone has the same experience or interests as the close friends you choose to associate with.

If you really want to know the percentage of women who have been abused, or conversely the percentage of men who have been abused, you have to do a valid study. A valid study means you get a large representative sample, you design an instrument and control for bias, and you accept the results even if they don't meet your expectations or hopes.

When these studies have been done objectively, the "1 in 5" figure, or even the "1 in 6" figure has not been supported by the unbiased research.

I am sorry that this fact disappoints you.


momoends
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 05:58 pm
@maxdancona,
I thought these toread was about 1 in 5 women..? What does that have to do with "not respecting men's rights" and considering i have many male divorced friends sharing custody of their kids with their exs peacefully, wouldn't be you the one extrapolating your personnal experiences here?
again: explain that "narrative " of mine please
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 06:02 pm
@momoends,
I was responding to your request that I explain what I mean by ideology. My answer is that your views are one-sided... you accept everything that supports your narrative whether it is true or not, and you reject everything that contradicts your narrative whether it is true or not.

I believe that your narrative is that women are repressed by men and by a male-centered society. Do you agree with this statement of your basic belief?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 06:13 pm
@momoends,
Quote:
i have many male divorced friends sharing custody of their kids with their exs peacefully


I am not arguing this point, I am just curious. "Sharing custody" means that the kids are with their father half (50%) of the time and that the father has the same authority and responsibility as the mother in raising them.

Do you really know male divorced friends where this is true? That would be really cool.
momoends
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 06:16 pm
@maxdancona,
Yes but that has no thing to do with rape víctims? It shocked me to know about those statistics.....
Know in about how unfair it is custody agreements to male doesn't have any thing to do with women reality either¿
If you dont accept women discrimination you are the one rejecting anything that contradicts your narrative too
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 06:23 pm
@momoends,
We keep going over this.

1. The rape statistics that say "1 in 5" and "1 in 6" are fake. They are not real. They are accepted because they support a popular ideological narrative. They not based on valid studies.

2. A narrative such as "women are repressed by men and by a male-centered society" is a very broad narrative. I agree that this narrative is sometimes true. I don't agree that this narrative is always true. You have to look at facts and evidence rather than relying on an ideological narrative.

I accept that women face discrimination. I have no problem accepting the narrative, your narrative, when the evidence and facts support it. I also accept the opposite narrative at times (which is where you and I differ).

There is a difference between being one sided and being balanced.



momoends
 
  3  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 06:28 pm
@maxdancona,
In spain shared custody is the standard legal agreement if nothing out of the ordinary happens to any of the parents.... All of them admit to be moré involved int their kids lifes now that they were before the divorce, letting their wives support the mayority of the responsability
momoends
 
  3  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 06:34 pm
@maxdancona,
I was raised in a gender equal family, i thought discrimination was something forma the past... Be sure that that narrative in my case is originated by real situations and irrefutable facts
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 07:01 pm
@momoends,
It's funny how often one-sided narratives are supported by irrefutable facts.

Irrefutable facts are the best kind of facts, because they can't be refuted. Heck, with just a few irrefutable facts behind your narrative, it will become unquestionable truth.

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 07:09 pm
@momoends,
Quote:
All of them admit to be moré involved int their kids lifes now that they were before the divorce, letting their wives support the mayority of the responsability


Jajaja
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 07:23 pm
@momoends,
Yo sé mas de lo que pasa en los EEUU que en España, pero encuentré eso... parece que los asuntos están similar con respeto a los derechos de progenitores.

http://www.eldiario.es/lapalmaahora/sociedad/Naira_Perez-derechos-progenitor_no_custodio_0_425557784.html
momoends
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 07:51 pm
@maxdancona,
Cuantas comunidades autónomas hay en España? Por qué coges una noticia sobre una en concreto que representa un tanto por cierto mínimo de la población y que además por su situación demográfica e histórica difiere enormemente del resto de España? La custodia compartida ha pasado a ser el 22 por ciento de los casos y si tenemos en cuenta el tanto por ciento en el que las mujeres son amas de casa, de abandono por alguno de los padres, etc etc.... Te darás cuenta de que siendo los padres ambos trabajadores e igualmente idóneos el tanto por ciento de custodias compartidas aumenta enormemente. Busca artículos del tribunal supremo acerca del asunto y no seas víctima de tu narrativa
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 08:18 pm
@momoends,
You said you were raised in a "gender equal family". Does that mean that your father and mother had equal roles in raising you and took equal responsibility for caring for you while you were growing up?
 

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