24
   

California adopts 'yes means yes' sexual assault rule

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 10:40 am
@aidan,
Given your knowledge of how young women often act sexuallly these days
And as the mother of a son you should be alarmed that the state is steadily criminalizing sex, almost always putting all the blame on men.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 10:43 am
@izzythepush,
Normal people accept FBI database that had until it been change a year or so ago been recording the numbers of reported rapes in the same way going back seven decades or so and the numbers of reported rapes repeat reported rapes are at a 35 plus years low.

Now no matter what percent of total rapes are reported assuming that the percent of all rapes being reported is the same over the decades then less reported rapes mean less overall rapes.

To claim we are now having a rape crisis would mean that we must assume that ratio of total rapes being reported had gone down greatly not up in the last three to four decades.

Quote:
Normal people accept them,


Most people do not take the time to look at how those crazy numbers came to be.

The crazy figures that are claiming that one in four or five college women are sexual assault victims during those years was created by playing games with doing such things as listing anyone who stated that they have ever fell pressure by a boyfriend into having sex when they was not in the mood as a sexual assault victim.

Most of the women being listed as sexual assault victims in those surveys do not view themselves as victims and a large percent of them are having ongoing relationships with the men who the surveys had listed as their "attackers".

It is a shame that the "normal" people do not think to do the research as to where the hell those numbers are coming from.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 10:50 am
@hawkeye10,
Yeah - like I said - I don't know how this bill can be enforced fairly and I think there needs to be some education and awareness training going on for the women too.
If a strange guy had walked up behind me and started doing what these girls were doing to strange guys - I'd have felt offended and assaulted. But for these girls - they were just having fun. So I guess it's all fun and games until someone feels hurt. They didn't even get the fact that they were disrespecting the guy and putting themselves in a dangerous situation. One of them was 18 years old grinding on a 45 year old man she met tailgating in the parking lot. She told me that she DID know him - for all of thirty minutes before she started making out with him in public. At first I thought he was her father - until she started her little semi-striptease act on him.
This just isn't going to work unless both sides get education on the matter and someone comes up with something to help prove consent was given (or not).
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 10:58 am
@aidan,
Given the US government guidelines for throwing men out of unversity I think it is fair to say that fairness is not a goal. I am pretty sure that these guildlines do not once mention our societal standard of presumption of innocence. They do however go on and on about how the accuser should be assumed to be fragile and so should not be questioned to intensely.

This is not about justice, this is about rigging up a system to get the feminists the results they demand.

Edit: consent must be continually given, and the guy needs to prove it because the law will hold him guilty till proven innocent. Taping all sex acts might work. Maybe a phone app where all parties stop every few minutes and reaffirm that they are willing participants.

Are we now beginning to see the nutty places we are going in the attempt to follow feminist theory? The nutty destination is the proof that feminist theory is not even close to being based on reality. It is the result if female feverish minds....aka fantasy.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 11:01 am
@aidan,
Quote:
I don't know how this bill can be enforced fairly


The answer is that it is not going to be enforce fairly and any man in college that is charge under this nonsense is not going to have due process or the ability to mount a defense.

The level of proof if you can call it that is more likely then not and in many of these cases the man does not even have a right to face his accuser.

We are not as a society interested in fairness to men as all men are guilty unless they somehow can prove otherwise of any charges a woman feel like leveling.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 11:02 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
This is not about justice, this is about rigging up a system to get the feminists the results they demand.


One hundred percents true.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 11:11 am
@ossobuco,
People can use "No" in addition to "Yes" with this new bill. That's why it makes clear that consent for one type of contact doesn't imply consent for another type.

One positive aspect of this bill is that it encourages discussion and communication between partners about sexual preferences, and that's important, particularly between people who don't know each other well and might be together for the first time. The colleges are also helping students learn how to communicate about sex, how to handle certain sexual situations, how to be attentive to a partner's feedback, how to set and communicate boundaries etc. All of that is an important aspect of making sure that what transpires is truly consensual for both parties, and truly wanted by both parties.

There are already a number of colleges and universities already using the "Yes means yes" standard for consent, and I think I read that, even in California, that has been the standard in the California State and U. of California network since last January. The only difference with this bill is that it makes it statewide for all colleges and universities.

I've searched, and I can't find evidence of significant problems at those schools who have been using the "Yes means yes" standard, or significant negative student reaction at those schools about the policy. Maybe, in time, these will surface, but most students don't seem to perceive this as any sort of radical change because they already view "consent" to mean that the various types of physical contacts engaged in should all be wanted, and "Yes means yes" helps to promote that.

Some of the fear and trembling, and vehement opposition, about this new bill, that's expressed in this thread, reminds me of what went on when spousal rape became recognized as just as real a crime of sexual assault as any other--prior to the mid-1970s marital rape was exempted from ordinary rape laws. All kinds of dire predictions of abuse of men were forecast when these laws were passed--they would be falsely accused, unjustly imprisoned, at the mercy of vindictive wives, the institution of marriage would be destroyed, blah, blah. Meanwhile, marital rape is now a crime in all 50 states, affording better legal protection from sexual assault by spouses, and the laws didn't significantly affect marital relations, or result in the abuse of men, for the overwhelming majority of people. More importantly, the entire issue sent a clear message that a wife's body is not the sexual property of her husband, to use as he wishes, without her consent.

I think we have to take a wait and see attitude with these "yes means yes" policies for students. They are being implemented to clarify issues and correct problems with the "No means no" standard which has been the norm--and remains the state law--and "No means no" still remains in effect. Obviously, when someone says "No" you don't have affirmative consent, you don't have any consent. But, sometimes an unwanted type of contact is made before the "No" can even be uttered. The advantage of requiring affirmative consent beforehand is that it encourages boundary setting, and communication, and agreement, before that unwanted sexual contact happens--it attempts to prevent sexual assaults between students.

Change can make people nervous, but I think college students will have little or no problems adapting to the change in policy, because, for most of them, sex is already a collaboration, and an activity they want to be mutually enjoyable for their partner as well as themselves. The notion of wanting an affirmative response, of some kind, is already part of their thinking and it's how they convey their regard for any partners.

The kind of student who ignores a partner's "No" and commits a sexual assault isn't likely to be very affected by this policy either--they'll disregard the need for affirmation as well, they disregard any requirement for consent, and that's the kind of sexual predator who commits the most sexual assaults on campus because they repeat that pattern. But this new bill again makes it clear that it is illegal--and not just a violation of school policy--to have sexual contact with someone who is asleep, unconscious, intoxicated, incapacitated, or unable to resist or communicate, and those are the types of victims many predators actively seek. But, since someone in those conditions can clearly not give affirmative consent, the defense, "It was consensual. He/she never said 'no' or resisted'" just won't fly, and they may well find themselves more easily held accountable for their sexual assaults.

One thing I feel is very positive about this bill is that it promotes an attitude of respect for all sexual partners, and I think that's an important value for a school to reinforce in their students.



aidan
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 11:15 am
@hawkeye10,
I don't know if this is a result of feminist theory - at least not the feminist theory I grew up reading about. That feminism was based on the concept of equality - equal pay for equal work - equal rights....etc. I think those feminists would be shocked to see its modern interpretation attributed to them.

As far as I can see - a lot of young girls today are the antithesis of what those feminists advocated and dreamed of for the women of the future.
They wanted equality for women - bottom line.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 11:29 am
@firefly,
Okay - yes, this will not change most sexual interactions, as most of them realistically are consensual and mutually entered into and agreed upon because most men are not rapists.
But how is a young man who is not a rapist supposed to defend himself against that small percentage of women who suffer from low self-esteem or mental illness for instance - and decide the morning after that they didn't feel validated by the experience and that they truly believe they shouldn't have and didn't actually say yes to what ended up happening and decide to let that be known. This is just too ambiguous to be written into law.

The education part of it is GREAT - but I don't know how any young man could meet the burden of proof to clear himself in a court of law - which it SHOULD go to - if a girl is raped on a college campus or any other venue. I'm just not getting how this will play out legally or fairly.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 11:52 am
@BillRM,
Quote:

It is a shame that the "normal" people do not think to do the research as to where the hell those numbers are coming from.

And that incudes you.

Until the federal definition of rape was updated about two years ago, it failed to include many cases that were considered to be rape on the state level in it's statistical count--meaning that actual rapes at the state level were being under-countered at the federal level. The alleged "all time low" for rapes, you seem to take such comfort in, was an illusion due to that undercounting.
Quote:
“Forcible rape” had been defined by the UCR SRS as “the carnal knowledge of a female, forcibly and against her will.” That definition, unchanged since 1927, was outdated and narrow. It only included forcible male penile penetration of a female vagina.

The new definition is:

“The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

For the first time ever, the new definition includes any gender of victim and perpetrator, not just women being raped by men. It also recognizes that rape with an object can be as traumatic as penile/vaginal rape. This definition also includes instances in which the victim is unable to give consent because of temporary or permanent mental or physical incapacity.

Furthermore, because many rapes are facilitated by drugs or alcohol, the new definition recognizes that a victim can be incapacitated and thus unable to consent because of ingestion of drugs or alcohol. Similarly, a victim may be legally incapable of consent because of age. The ability of the victim to give consent must be determined in accordance with individual state statutes. Physical resistance is not required on the part of the victim to demonstrate lack of consent.

The UCR is the national “report card” on serious crime; what gets reported through the UCR is how we, collectively, view crime in this country. Police departments submit data on reported crimes and arrests to the UCR SRS. Even though most states have more expansive definitions of rape in their criminal codes, they had to report the smaller number of crimes falling under the more narrow UCR SRS definition. This meant that the statistics that were reported nationally were both inaccurate and undercounted.

Because the new definition is more inclusive, reported crimes of rape are likely to increase. This does not mean that rape has increased, but simply that it is more accurately reported. In addition, the UCR program will also collect data based on the historical definition of rape, enabling law enforcement to track consistent trend data until the statistical differences between the old and new definitions are more fully understood.
http://www.justice.gov/opa/blog/updated-definition-rape
Quote:


And, indeed, under the updated, more accurate, definition, the number of reported rapes has risen.
Quote:
Rapes are up under new FBI definition
By Niraj Chokshi
February 18, 2014

Two years ago, the Federal Bureau of Investigation announced that it was changing the definition of rape that had been in place since 1927. It took effect for last year’s violent crime count, and, under that new definition, rapes were up in most cities.

Violent crime in general dropped about 5.4 percent between the first half of 2012 and the first half of 2013, according to the FBI’s semiannual Uniform Crime Report. Rapes, however, increased. There were 14,400 rapes reported from January to June last year, up from 13,242 in the first half of 2012.

But it’s unclear how that compares to the year before. Under the old definition, the number of rapes declined 10.6 percent between 2012 and 2013. The rise in number instead reflects the new, more-accurate definition of the crime. The number of instances of rape rose in 138 cities and fell in 119, according to comparisons where data for both years were available. The FBI data captures just a fraction of the nation — only 272 cities, a group home to just over a fourth of the national population.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/02/18/rapes-are-up-under-new-fbi-definition/


So you're the one playing around with the numbers trying to suggest there is no real problem with sexual assault in this country, or on our college campuses--except the colleges, and the government, acknowledge that the problem exists. I don't know what you feel would be an acceptable number of rapes on a college campus, I think it would be zero.

And, in case you have been too busy denying the reality of rape to notice, this thread is about the new bill in California that adds an affirmative consent requirement, "Yes means yes" to the already existing "No means no" for sexual contacts between college students, to help insure that the types of contacts engaged in are mutually wanted and agreeable to both parties.

I can't see where anything you are saying is relevant to the topic of this thread.


0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 12:37 pm
@aidan,
Quote:
I don't know if this is a result of feminist theory - at least not the feminist theory I grew up reading about. That feminism was based on the concept of equality - equal pay for equal work - equal rights....etc. I think those feminists would be shocked to see its modern interpretation attributed to them.


Yes indeed the early movement was indeed about both equal rights and equal responsibilities.

When the ERA was up for approval I was all for it and even joined NOW with a membership card an all. The feminists of the era are not those with that label now.

Those days and those women are far in the past and all we have now in women hating men who have taken over the movement.

Women who using women studies departments to created phony studies/surveys to paint a large percent of college men as rapists and a large percent of college women as victims.

Women professors who sign an open letter condemning the three innocent young men at Duke as rapists without any due process for example.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 12:59 pm
@aidan,
Quote:
But how is a young man who is not a rapist supposed to defend himself against that small percentage of women who suffer from low self-esteem or mental illness for instance - and decide the morning after that they didn't feel validated by the experience and that they truly believe they shouldn't have and didn't actually say yes to what ended up happening and decide to let that be known. This is just too ambiguous to be written into law.

I think you're going to have far fewer women with after-the-fact regrets if they were actually asked what they wanted and didn't want, and boundaries were set and agreed on, at the time of the sexual contact. For one thing, they'd have to be alert and rational, and aware and sober enough, to discuss it coherently at the time, and the partner would have to be as well.

And how do you know that so-called later regrets are "regrets" and not reports of actual sexual assaults that took place? Trying to dismiss these complaints as invalid "regrets" is an often used defense tactic because the most common defense by someone accused of sexual misconduct is either "It was consensual" or "The contact never took place".

I really don't see where the burden of proof is any greater with "Yes means yes" than it is with "No means no"--which is already the state law. The issue of proving or disproving whether consent was given is essentially the same with both. Women aren't require to document or record their "No" to prove they were raped, and that their protests were ignored, so why assume that young men are going to have to provide concrete evidence that they obtained affirmative consent? I don't think that's a component or requirement for consent in this new bill. Someone who's accused of violating that standard might simply have to describe why they thought their partner was providing affirmation that the contact was wanted, either in terms of what they said, or what they indicated behaviorally.

Investigations of sexual assault complaints hinge on all available evidence about the event, from both sides, and the credibility of both the complainant and the accused, just as they did before this bill. Nothing's changed in that regard. And I don't think it's going to result in any more males being found guilty of sexual misconduct than was the case before this bill, because nothing essential about the nature of "consent" has changed--the need for "consent" was always meant to differentiate wanted from unwanted sexual contact. "Yes means yes" simply helps to insure the contact is really wanted. It should decrease misunderstandings about whether a type of sexual contact is really wanted by both parties. And it's not just the male who has to get affirmative consent, the female does as well--the bill is not gender specific.

I think we have to wait and see how this plays out since "Yes means yes" is already in effect at many colleges and universities beside those in California, and they all will have to deal with how to enforce it in a way that's fair to all parties. But the main purpose of these initiatives is to reduce the number of sexual assaults, unwanted sexual contacts, between students, and I do think this sort of bill has the potential to do that.

I agree with you, I think that possible rapes should be investigated and adjudicated in the criminal justice system, and not on college campuses, but students would also be deprived of privacy if that were done. And the "yes means yes" standard is only college policy--under state law, "No means no" is the standard.

I'm just not overly pessimistic about this bill.



hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 02:33 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
I think you're going to have far fewer women with after-the-fact regrets if they were actually asked what they wanted and didn't want, and boundaries were set and agreed on,


No because they will fall back on " he caused my brain to to be on drugs/alcohol" (even though she put it there) or "he pressured me into saying yes, it was not a real yes....HE RAPED ME!"


Quote:
I really don't see where the burden of proof is any greater with "Yes means yes" than it is with "No means no"

Liar, when a no is required the state needs to prove that their was a no, when a yes is required the defense needs to prove that there was a yes. The state sure is not going to attempt to prove it. We have codified the new standard, when it comes to sex men are guilty till they prove their innocence.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 02:36 pm
I think it is time everyone involved in this discussion ought to re-read the story about Chicken Little...and "the sky is falling."

Perhaps reflecting on what was trying to be taught there is in order.
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 02:38 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

I think it is time everyone involved in this discussion ought to re-read the story about Chicken Little...and "the sky is falling."

Perhaps reflecting on what was trying to be taught there is in order.



The history of sex law changes since the mid 1970's would be more instructive. How far down this path of criminalizing sex, and in the process absolving women of all responsibility for attempting to avoid being a victim are we going to go? When are we going to start treating women as being equal to men rather than as precious imbeciles?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 03:58 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
women as being equal to men rather than as precious imbeciles?


LOL Hawkeye you are somewhat nastier then I am, as I used the words treating women as children but I do like your treating them as precious imbeciles far better.

0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 04:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The history of sex law changes since the mid 1970's would be more instructive. How far down this path of criminalizing sex, and in the process absolving women of all responsibility for attempting to avoid being a victim are we going to go? When are we going to start treating women as being equal to men rather than as precious imbeciles?

All that's been criminalized is unwanted sexual contact. And all that's essentially changed in the past few decades is that women no longer have to prove they physically resisted--or were beaten black and blue and bloodied--to demonstrate that the sexual contact was unwanted. But those are the "good old days" you apparently long for.

This new bill does put women on equal footing with men--both parties must have affirmative consent for sexual contacts with the other person.

What you really resent is that women, in the past few decades, have gained the power of law to better protect themselves from sexual assault, particularly in those situations where the rapist is known to them--be it a spouse or a date rape/acquaintance rape situation--because non-stranger rapes are the type most likely to occur, and that is definitely the case on a college campus. A woman's "No" now carries the power of law behind it. And these laws serve a deterrent effect.

Rape can be committed only by the one who violates or disregards the need for consent before making any sort of penetrative contact, with either a body part or an object, into the bodily openings of the other--something that can be done by either gender--and the law applies equally to both genders. There is no shared responsibility for the act of rape.

And "yes means yes" is definitely a way to help students avoid being a victim of rape, or of inadvertently committing sexual assault, becomes it requires communication of what are wanted, or unwanted, types of sexual contact beforehand, both parties can establish and agree to boundaries beforehand. Given the sort of casual hook-ups that go on on campuses, this seems a pragmatic and sensible approach to reducing sexual assaults/unwanted sexual contacts.

And this new bill will allow the colleges to crack down on the sexual activity that occurs when one, or both, parties are intoxicated, or if one party is asleep, unconscious, physically or mentally impaired or incapacitated, etc.--things that are already illegal--because the necessary conditions for affirmative consent are clearly not present in such situations. That alone will likely reduce the incidence of student sexual assaults.

Women are quite equal to men--which makes them quite able to advocate for laws that provide them with better protection from sexual assault--from unwanted sexual contacts. And they've been able to help the, still predominantly male, legislatures to understand why these laws are necessary, and to get them passed. That's what just happened in California, and that's what you really resent--the political power of women has become equal to that of men in bringing about changes to sex laws in the past few decades. They're actually being listened to, and they are affecting policy, because they're not the "precious imbeciles" you seem to think they are.

OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 04:42 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Quote:
The history of sex law changes since the mid 1970's would be more instructive. How far down this path of criminalizing sex, and in the process absolving women of all responsibility for attempting to avoid being a victim are we going to go? When are we going to start treating women as being equal to men rather than as precious imbeciles?

All that's been criminalized is unwanted sexual contact. And all that's essentially changed in the past few decades is that women no longer have to prove they physically resisted--or were beaten black and blue and bloodied--to demonstrate that the sexual contact was unwanted. But those are the "good old days" you apparently long for.

This new bill does put women on equal footing with men--both parties must have affirmative consent for sexual contacts with the other person.

What you really resent is that women, in the past few decades, have gained the power of law to better protect themselves from sexual assault, particularly in those situations where the rapist is known to them--be it a spouse or a date rape/acquaintance rape situation--because non-stranger rapes are the type most likely to occur, and that is definitely the case on a college campus. A woman's "No" now carries the power of law behind it. And these laws serve a deterrent effect.

Rape can be committed only by the one who violates or disregards the need for consent before making any sort of penetrative contact, with either a body part or an object, into the bodily openings of the other--something that can be done by either gender--and the law applies equally to both genders. There is no shared responsibility for the act of rape.

And "yes means yes" is definitely a way to help students avoid being a victim of rape, or of inadvertently committing sexual assault, becomes it requires communication of what are wanted, or unwanted, types of sexual contact beforehand, both parties can establish and agree to boundaries beforehand. Given the sort of casual hook-ups that go on on campuses, this seems a pragmatic and sensible approach to reducing sexual assaults/unwanted sexual contacts.

And this new bill will allow the colleges to crack down on the sexual activity that occurs when one, or both, parties are intoxicated, or if one party is asleep, unconscious, physically or mentally impaired or incapacitated, etc.--things that are already illegal--because the necessary conditions for affirmative consent are clearly not present in such situations. That alone will likely reduce the incidence of student sexual assaults.

Women are quite equal to men--which makes them quite able to advocate for laws that provide them with better protection from sexual assault--from unwanted sexual contacts. And they've been able to help the, still predominantly male, legislatures to understand why these laws are necessary, and to get them passed. That's what just happened in California, and that's what you really resent--the political power of women has become equal to that of men in bringing about changes to sex laws in the past few decades. They're actually being listened to, and they are affecting policy, because they're not the "precious imbeciles" you seem to think they are.
Its a lot safer
just to attend your friendly local brothel.

As long as u PAY them as agreed,
those girls do not retroactively withdraw consent,
retroactively creating a rape.

It reminds me of guys who drink and drive,
being too stingy to hire chauffeurs.





David
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 04:58 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
David while the sex act can be enjoyable when there is no real emotions between you and your partner it does not and can not compare to sex with someone you love and care about.

Unfortunately the task of looking for such a woman have been turn into Russian Roulette for our young men.

Running into one unstable woman can ruin a young man life in no time at all, with special note of college campuses where the men hating version of feminism is in power and I fear for my three step grandsons future.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 05:26 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

David while the sex act can be enjoyable when there is no real emotions between you and your partner it does not and can not compare to sex with someone you love and care about.


Have you ever paid for sex, Bill...or are you just guessing about this?

0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.3 seconds on 11/25/2024 at 01:57:06