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California adopts 'yes means yes' sexual assault rule

 
 
Buttermilk
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 11:26 am
@Setanta,
But what about the men who aren't horn dogs? What about the vindictiveness of some people? Look at the Duke rape case, or the aspiring NFL player from Long Beach Polytechnic High School who spent years in prison only to be released because the accuser lied?
OmSigDAVID
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 11:29 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
I really dislike namby/pamby p.c. language.
Let's not leave out what this is about. This is about rape.
Call them accused rapists. Don't try to pretty it up.
I 'm glad that I have never been accused of getting out of line with anyone.
Once that allegation has been asserted against someone, anyone,
not even the acquittals of 1OOO juries can get that tar off.

No matter how innocent anyone may be,
he will take that taint to his grave.
The allegation is enuf.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 11:30 am
@Buttermilk,
Anecdotal evidence--you haven't established that that sort of incident is the norm. Of course, that's just all the more reason to avoid being in ambiguous situations. Can you provide evidence that male university students are routinely and widely subjected to false accusations of rape?
Buttermilk
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 11:32 am
@OmSigDAVID,
David pigs must be flying cause I agree with you. The "taint" of the accusation alone, just like the accusation of child molestation alone even if false can ruin someone's life.
OmSigDAVID
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 11:37 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Anecdotal evidence--you haven't established that that sort of incident is the norm.
Of course, that's just all the more reason to avoid being in ambiguous situations.
Can you provide evidence that male university students are routinely
and widely subjected to false accusations of rape?
I infer that Setanta is intimating
that if the victims of false allegations of rape are sufficiently FEW,
then its OK.

He really takes the cake, for anti-Individualism.
OmSigDAVID
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 11:39 am
@Buttermilk,
Buttermilk wrote:
David pigs must be flying cause I agree with you.
The "taint" of the accusation alone, just like the accusation of child
molestation alone even if false can ruin someone's life.
Yes; we contemplate accusations of sexual abuse either of kids or of adult women.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 11:40 am
David seems almost desperately eager to pick a fight. He is indulging ever more heavily in personal slurs in the home of starting a fight. How pathetic he is.
Buttermilk
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 11:40 am
@Setanta,
No I cannot, but due to me being on my ps4 as opposed to a computer I can't provide links but I encourage you to read about the Long Beach Poly player accused of rape who served time in prison. The point is it's not about the numbers that we ought to look at and say "hey more false accusations are common, on universities so let's take it seriously." No. We should take it serious regardless how common or uncommon. Like rape culture I think our policies are fear mongering due to some advocacy groups.

OmSigDAVID
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 11:43 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
David seems almost desperately eager to pick a fight.
He is indulging ever more heavily in personal slurs in the home of starting a fight. How pathetic he is.
I don t have that in mind.
We don t need to fight. U can relax. I don t bite.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 11:50 am
@Buttermilk,
So you allege that we should concentrate on individual cases, while invoking some vague, amorphous "rape culture" in which unnamed advocacy groups are rear mongering, and, one infers, causing these unfounded accusations of rape. As for individual cases, that argument extends to any accusation of crime.
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 12:56 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Anecdotal evidence--you haven't established that that sort of incident is the norm. Of course, that's just all the more reason to avoid being in ambiguous situations. Can you provide evidence that male university students are routinely and widely subjected to false accusations of rape?


The goal, and the practical effect, of this bill is to make it easier to prosecute someone being accused of rape. This bill further slants the process in favor of the prosecution. This is undoubtedly a bad thing for the defense.

The issue is one of fairness for the defendant in a criminal case. Turning an ambiguous situation into one that always favors the prosecution isn't necessarily a good thing as far as civil rights are concerned.

I don't think the term "widely subjected" is relevant. There are documented cases that false allegations do happen, the number doesn't matter. Even if it is rare, defendants still have a right to expect a fair trial.

More interesting are the cases that are ambiguous. There are cases where reasonable people will disagree whether a case is rape or not.

Deciding a criminal case by giving the prosecution all of the benefit of the doubt (by law) is deeply troubling to me, particularly in a legal system that is based on the principle of innocent until proven guilty.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 03:30 pm
@maxdancona,
Well, that's complete blather--wonderfully emotive, indignant, self-righteous, and, best of all, evidence free.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 03:32 pm
I suppose i'll need to point out that false accusations of any criminal activity can ruin someone's life. Unless someone here can make a case that there is an alarmingly higher incidence and prevalence of this in accusations of rape, then there is no reason to single that crime out for outrage.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 03:37 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Unless someone here can make a case that there is an alarmingly higher incidence and prevalence of this in accusations of rape

Wrong, because rape is considered to be one of the worst crimes a person could do. The correct answer is

Quote:
Unless someone here can make a case that there is an alarmingly higher incidence and prevalence of this in accusations of rape than for other crimes in this class, such as child molestation and murder.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  4  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 03:44 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Unless someone here can make a case that there is an alarmingly higher incidence and prevalence of this in accusations of rape, then there is no reason to single that crime out for outrage.


I fail to see why this matters.

Due process (and presumption and innocence) for people who have been accused of a crime are core principles of our system of justice. The prevalence of people being falsely accused is irrelevant.

A quick Google search says between 2% and 15% (depending on the study) of reported rapes are baseless. Obviously studies on such an emotionally and politically charged topic are going to be deeply controversial (and this type of study is very difficult to do scientifically anyway since it can only rely on self-reporting).

But let's say, for the sake of argument, the the number of reported rapes that are baseless is under 2% (I suspect the actual number is somewhat higher). How does that number matter?

People accused of a crime should be given due process.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 03:53 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The prevalence of people being falsely accused is irrelevant.
Citizens are hurt, sometimes gravely, by failures of government....but this rates a wave of the hand according to you. Competent government police forces get their man, the guilty one, not the innocent.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 03:54 pm
@maxdancona,
You're trotting out that due process BS again, but you haven't shown how anyone's right to due process is being interfered with. In fact, i wonder if you understand what due process means. If this law were an odious violation of an individual's right to due process, it would be struck down in Federal court in a heart beat. Read the XIVth Amendment some time.

So it matters because your remarks are predicated on an undemonstrated claim that this law interferes with due process. The due process clause of the XIVth amendment is the most litigated passage in the constitution. If this does not pass muster, it will soon be gone. So will whatever pack of idiots framed it.
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 04:23 pm
@Setanta,
I will leave you and Hawkeye to work this one out. You are both completely missing the actual point. So have at it you two.

Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 04:38 pm
@maxdancona,
I have no interest in Whackeye's blather. You allege that this statute interferes with an accused's rights of due process. But you haven't explained how that works. I suspect that you haven't done so because you don't actually know what the due process clause of the XIVth amendment guarantees. You're making a claim which you haven't substantiated, Mr. Scientific Proof.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2014 05:03 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
I have no interest in Whackeye's blather.
This in spite of the fact that it is who opened the subjects here at A2K years ago about the broken justice system and the excessive criminalization of sex.

More people agree with me all of the time, by sharp eye for issues of importance has been found to be true yet again.
 

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