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California adopts 'yes means yes' sexual assault rule

 
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 02:27 pm
@One Eyed Mind,
Quote:

Actually, no. Affirmative Consent is based entirely on the female saying yes. It doesn't matter what the male says.

That's not what that bill in California says. I suggest you read it.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 02:28 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Did the Canadian rapists emigrate ?


LOL, I do not think that Canadians have sex in Canada but come to the US for that purpose along with doing their shopping at all the discounts stores along the border on the weekends.

You can not get near a Costco anywhere near the border due to all the Canadians fulling the parking lots avoiding their value added taxes.
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 02:33 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

firefly wrote:
With these new affirmative consent initiatives colleges are trying to prevent such crimes, but it's worth noting that Canada no longer uses the criminal offense of rape.
Did the Canadian rapists emigrate ?


Is it true there's an epidemic of wild and crazy drug-fueled sex parties up in Canada, where drugs, frost bite and free love are very common?
One Eyed Mind
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 02:36 pm
@firefly,
That's my point!

This law isn't going to prevent anything.

It has dangerous loopholes. Both can get drunk and forget the actual details for what happened - welp, the law isn't going to protect that.

The female can lie; the male can lie - welp, there's another problem.

The female may say "yes" for something else, and the male will take advantage of that and say "well, you said yes, so sex me now" - welp, another problem with the law.

Language is one of the most susceptible aspects in life to smoke and mirrors. Anyone can twist words and the context of an event to support their false pretenses.

This law is basically entrusting everything to someone's word - when eye witnesses are already a terrible form of evidence; hearsay is just as bad.

Now you see that there needs to be more action and thought put into a serious situation. The idiots aren't trying to fix the hole; they're just patching them up and making things more complicated. Know what happens on the other end? Judicially, these cases become harder to settle - so the law not only does nothing, it makes solving these cases even harder.

****, don't you love this species! Not even Dr. Gregory House wants to solve their ignorance.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 02:39 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Did the Canadian rapists emigrate ?


LOL, I do not think that Canadians have sex in Canada but come to the US for that purpose along with doing their shopping at all the discounts stores along the border on the weekends.

You can not get near a Costco anywhere near the border due to all the Canadians fulling the parking lots avoiding their value added taxes.


That's why up near the border, these folks are known as "cheap pricks"!
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 02:45 pm
@Miller,
firefly wrote:
With these new affirmative consent initiatives colleges are trying to prevent such crimes,
but it's worth noting that Canada no longer uses the criminal offense of rape.
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Did the Canadian rapists emigrate ?
Miller wrote:

Is it true there's an epidemic of wild and crazy drug-fueled sex parties up in Canada,
where drugs, frost bite and free love are very common?
I imgine that thay r going at it up there,
wearing sox & mittens.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  4  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 02:54 pm
After further consideration I will agree that "Yes Means Yes" is slightly preferable to "No Means No," to the extent that a woman who is extremely intoxicated might not be in a position to say anything, let alone "No," but it's hard for me to imagine that if a woman could prove she was this intoxicated (a certainly easier task than proving who said what with a tape recorder or video camera) that an adjudicating body would rule that since she didn't verbalize "No," there was no assault or rape.

There still will be cases where consent will be in dispute and I can see arguments being made that a "Yes" didn't really count because the woman was intoxicated.

So, yes it's a small improvement, but not by much, and I just don't believe its going to have any significant impact on the way young people on campus interact sexually. Personally, I doubt too many young men are completely blind-sided by a woman who says yes in private but recants in public. If they turn off their judgment about people to serve their pursuit of sex, it's hard to feel a lot of sympathy for them. Obviously this would be much less of an issue/problem if the "hook-up culture," the "let's get bombed" culture, and the "women are all helpless victims" culture weren't all so prevalent and interwoven on campuses.

http://www.clickhole.com/article/what-rise-hookup-culture-means-everyone-you-1111

One Eyed Mind
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 02:56 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
My thoughts exactly, Finn.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 02:57 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Obviously this would be much less of an issue/problem if the "hook-up culture," the "let's get bombed" culture, and the "women are all helpless victims" culture weren't all so prevalent and interwoven on campuses.


Do not forget that men are all sexual predators with most barely being held in check by fear of the laws.
Miller
 
  3  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 03:05 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

firefly wrote:
With these new affirmative consent initiatives colleges are trying to prevent such crimes,
but it's worth noting that Canada no longer uses the criminal offense of rape.
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Did the Canadian rapists emigrate ?
Miller wrote:

Is it true there's an epidemic of wild and crazy drug-fueled sex parties up in Canada,
where drugs, frost bite and free love are very common?
I imgine that thay r going at it up there,
wearing sox & mittens.


David, you forgot the smelly long underwear and of course those big, woolen hats. How can such "sexless" folks really enjoy sex?
OmSigDAVID
 
  3  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 03:23 pm
@Miller,
U think thay r in peril of extinction ?
Miller
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 03:29 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

U think thay r in peril of extinction ?


You mean the long underwear? No, but I suspect that they like so many articles of clothing aren't produced in the US anymore. I like the silk long underwear, when I'm cross-country skiing. How about you?
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 03:34 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Do not forget that men are all sexual predators with most barely being held in check by fear of the laws.

It's because they aren't, and know that, that the young college men in California aren't quaking in their boots. They know this new bill won't affect them in any way.

The bill may well help to expose the very small percentage who are serial predators on campus, and that's who commits most of the sexual assaults (an average of about 6 each), because their lack of legal consent becomes even more apparent if affirmative consent is required on campuses. And I don't see where anyone, or the laws, are sympathetic, or should be, to sexual predators.

I'm glad the younger generation seems much more open minded than the old coots--mostly male--posting in this thread, particularly when it comes to decreasing sexual assaults on their campuses. They're not trying to deny the problem for starters.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 04:00 pm
Quote:

Most Americans Support 'Yes Means Yes' Sexual Consent Rule
10/06/2014

Most Americans think there's a problem with campus sexual assault, and nearly six in 10 approve of a California law intended to combat it, according to a new HuffPost/YouGov poll.

Americans are nearly four times as likely to say that colleges and universities do a bad job than they are to say they do a good job of handling cases of rape, sexual assault or harassment. Just 13 percent rate schools' efforts positively, effectively unchanged from a poll taken earlier this year.

Fifty-nine percent support California's new "yes mean yes" law, which was signed into law in late September by Gov. Jerry Brown (D-Calif.) The law goes beyond the refrain "no means no" by requiring "an affirmative, conscious and voluntary agreement to engage in sexual activity." Just 21 percent disapprove of the law.

Women's groups and advocates for assault victims, who supported the change, say it will help educate students that silence isn't the same thing as consent. The law also requires new training for college faculty on how complaints should be reviewed.

Both genders are equally likely to say campuses do a poor job of handling sexual assault, but the survey finds divides along gender lines on how often justice is served for victims, and on who holds more responsibility for determining whether sex is consensual.

Sixty-two percent of women and 41 percent of men believe it's more common for rapists to go free because people don't believe the accuser than it is for people to be accused falsely of rape. Men are 9 points more likely than women to say false accusations are more common, and 12 points more likely to say they aren't sure.

Men, however, were more likely than women to say that whoever initiates a sexual encounter has the responsibility to make sure the other person consents, while women were about equally likely to say the person not initiating has the responsibility to make it clear whether they consent.

Among men, 49 percent say the responsibility for establishing consent lies with the person initiating, and 36 percent that it lies with the other person. Among women, 43 percent put the onus on the person initiating, and 45 percent on the other person.

A study by the National Center for the Prosecution of Violence Against Women shows just how rare false accusations are, estimating that just 2 to 8 percent of reports are false. In contrast, Department of Justice-funded research found that only about one-third of rapes or fewer are ever prosecuted.

The HuffPost/YouGov poll was conducted Sept. 30-Oct.1 among 1,000 U.S. adults using a sample selected from YouGov's opt-in online panel to match the demographics and other characteristics of the adult U.S. population. Factors considered include age, race, gender, education, employment, income, marital status, number of children, voter registration, time and location of Internet access, interest in politics, religion and church attendance.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/06/yes-means-yes-poll_n_5940510.html
Finn dAbuzz
 
  3  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 07:33 pm
@firefly,
First of all I don't understand why anyone would oppose this law, unless it was on the basis of it being essentially ineffective or unnecessary. It would be interesting to have details on why 40% (not an insignificant figure) oppose it.

Secondly the statement "Most Americans think there's a problem with campus sexual assault," is pretty clearly intended to give the impression that most Americans believe that sexual assault is rampant on American campuses, however it cites no polling results to support such a claim.

The poll showed that "both genders are equally likely to say campuses do a poor job of handling sexual assault," and this is something far different than expressing a belief that sexual assault is a major problem at colleges and universities.

The "problem" it turns out has to do with the effectiveness and fairness of college responses to possible sexual assaults with, as expected, the majority of women believe the "problem" is that more men get away with assaults because the accuser is not believed, than there are women making false accusations, and a majority of men believe the reverse. Presumably both men and women are consuming roughly the same media coverage on the issue but are walking away with different interpretations that seem to be gender related. I would hope it goes without saying that neither gender is inherently more correct about this topic than the other.

If people actually do believe there is an epidemic of sexual assault on campuses (and for that matter in the military) it could be because of all the media coverage repeating the unbelievable statistic that one in four women on American campuses are sexually assaulted. There is a reason most Americans believe that LGBT represent 20% to 25% of the population when at least one LGBT organization say it is less than 10% and it isn't because it's a fact..

hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 07:49 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
There is a reason most Americans believe that LGBT represent 20% to 25% of the population when at least one LGBT organization say it is less than 10% and it isn't because it's a fact..


You see the same thing when people complain if a group is more than half white under the theory " this group does not represent American diversity". The truth is that more than 7 in 10 Americans are white, a true picture of American diversity has 70% of the people in it white.

Quote:
First of all I don't understand why anyone would oppose this law, unless it was on the basis of it being essentially ineffective or unnecessary.
All you need to do to find out is to pay attention to what those who oppose the law say, as we almost always have the courtesy to explain our thinking.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 08:03 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
A study by the National Center for the Prosecution of Violence Against Women shows just how rare false accusations are, estimating that just 2 to 8 percent of reports are false.

nicely illustrating what is wrong with journalism today. If you are going looking for facts at least attempt to find sources that have some credibility. For one prosecutors are some of the most abusive people in American society, and two any group that according to its name considers the sexual abuse of men second rate should be dismissed as to partial to be considered a source for facts.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 08:35 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I think the statement, "Most Americans think there's a problem with campus sexual assault," means just what it says. Words like "epidemic" or "rampant" or "major problem" are yours, but you can't assume that's what others were thinking.

They simply may have asked, "Do you think there's a problem with campus sexual assault?"

I think there's a problem, and although I wouldn't call it an epidemic or a major problem, I do think it's a significant problem that colleges have to stop trying to sweep under the rug.

I don't know why anyone would oppose this bill either. You'll have to ask one of them who's opposing it in this thread. I've yet to get a logical answer.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 08:41 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye, Firefly is still trying to sell that nonsense I see from your quoting of her and for everyone else who are not long term readers of the threads on this subject her claims of such low false reporting rates are nonsense.

One ten years study covering two midwest cities by E.J. Kanin had the false accuse rate at over 40 percents and a very large US airforce study have the false rate at around 25 percents.

An of course you could fill up a terabyte drive with examples of men who had fact false charges of sexual assault if you care to take the time to do so.

To sum up the 2 to 8 percent false report rates claims have the same unfirm foundation as the 20 percent of college women being sexual assault victims during their four years in college.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 08:55 pm
@BillRM,
How many men lie and claim, "It was consensual, she wanted it"?

The ones on campuses in California and New York, who ignore consent, will have a little harder time doing that now. This bill is intended to prevent sexual assaults, and I think it will do that. It will also make it easier for colleges to adjudicate complaints because the consent standard is clearer.
0 Replies
 
 

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