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California adopts 'yes means yes' sexual assault rule

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 05:41 pm
@BillRM,
Our favorite misandrist is in agreement that this new type of consent turns the screws on men:

Quote:
The law has no bearing on the vast majority of sexual encounters. It only applies when a student files a sexual assault complaint. And all it does is help the disciplinary board craft its line of questioning to get to the important facts. Now, instead of starting the investigation by asking if the victim said no—and how she said no and whether her no was good enough to get her out of unwanted sex—the investigation focuses on the actions of the accused. Example questions could include, "Did she want to have sex with you?" or "Did she want to do everything you two did?"


http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/09/29/affirmative_consent_in_california_gov_jerry_brown_signs_the_yes_means_yes.html

She also makes clear a near universal opinion of misandrists....that men should be able to read the minds of women, and that men should be held criminally liable if women claim that we did not do it correctly.
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 07:26 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
She also makes clear a near universal opinion of misandrists....that men should be able to read the minds of women

She says no such thing.

And the new bill actually says the opposite--no one should be trying to read anyone else's mind--there should be ongoing active communication, by both parties, about what is wanted.

And the entire point of "yes means yes" standards for consent is to encourage clear communication on the part of both parties about the types of contact that are wanted--or unwanted--before they are engaged in. If the answer to, "Are you alright if I do..." isn't, "Yes", you just don't do it-- you have no consent.
Quote:
that men should be held criminally liable if women claim that we did not do it correctly.

Why bother to post a link to an article if you're going to fabricate what it says? Is that your way of blatantly showing what a liar you are. I think few people here need more convincing on that score.

The issue with this new bill is consent for different types of sexual contact--consent that's expressed in a positive affirmative manner, indicating that it's contact the other person really wants. There's only one way to "do that correctly"--you ask--beforehand--and if the answer isn't "Yes" you don't do it. If you don't ask, and she winds up yelling, "No" after you've penetrated her vaginally or anally, you've already committed a sexual assault, and you should be held criminally liable, or in breach of the student code, if she files a complaint. The same is true if, in the midst of sexual contact, she decides to jam a fat candle into your anus, without bothering to get your consent, because she thinks it would make for a funny photo--you can file a complaint against her if that was unwanted sexual contact.

From that article you posted:
Quote:
The affirmative consent law sets the bar for sex at roughly the same level that we have for going to someone's house: Don't do it if you're not invited, and don't use the fact that someone invited you into his or her living room as an excuse to abscond with a stereo.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/09/29/affirmative_consent_in_california_gov_jerry_brown_signs_the_yes_means_yes.html


Now the average college student should be able to comprehend that, even if you have difficulty understanding it.

hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 07:54 pm
@firefly,
Quote:

And the entire point of "yes means yes" standards for consent is to encourage clear communication on the part of both parties about the types of contact that are wanted--or unwanted--before they are engaged in


Bullshit, the law says directly that each act needs a new affirmative consent, not each encounter. This law demands either a predetermined script of what will happen or else constant yakity yak along the way. And " encourage" is the wrong word, the correct word is "demands".

Quote:
The affirmative consent law sets the bar for sex at roughly the same level that we have for going to someone's house: Don't do it if you're not invited, and don't use the fact that someone invited you into his or her living room as an excuse to abscond with a stereo.


Hawkeye knocks on Firefly's door.

Firefly opens it

Hawkeye: Hi

Firefly: So good of you to come

Firefly: would you like to come in

Hawkeye: would you like me to come in?

Firefly: yes

Hawkeye: ok

Hawkeye: may I put my coat on this here hook?

Firefly: sure!

Firefly: would you like to come into the study?

Hawkeye : Would you like me to come into the study? and for what purpose?

Firefly: I would love it if you would come into the study. I was thinking we might listen to Ozzy Osbourne and chat a bit.

Hawkeye: hold up there lady, which Ozzy tracks and what are the parameters of this so called " chat"?

Firefly: Blah, blah, blah, blah blah

Hawkeye: Sounds good

Hawkeye: can I sit on this sofa?

Firefly: If your pants are clean, if you dont put your feet on the coffee table, if you make sure to never hold a drink over the sofa, you scoot forwards and hold the drink over the coffee table if I should offer you a drink, which will of course require a good deal of conversation to establish mutual consent and the parameters of this drink consumption.

and so on and so on.




Nope, the analogy does not work.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 08:17 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye a very amusing analogy of this law or it would be amusing if it was not also accurate.

Turning sexual relationships on CA college campuses into games of Simon says.

In the history of the human race I wonder if any couple had ever made love in the manner this law is demanding of college couples.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 08:19 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Hawkeye a very amusing analogy of this law or it would be amusing if it was not also accurate.

Turning sexual relationships on CA college campuses into games of Simon says.

I am getting more than a little tired of people who dont think that women are property telling me that having non government approved sex with a woman is an act of theft. Make up your ******* mind I say, are women property or not? It sure sounds to me like the government is acting as if they think they own women, that non approved sexual use of women is theft from the government, requiring criminal charges.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 08:29 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
In the history of the human race I wonder if any couple had ever made love in the manner this law is demanding of college couples.


According to our owners human nature is something needing to be deprogrammed out of existence. The feminists utopia was never intended nor fit for humans.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 09:11 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Bullshit, the law says directly that each act needs a new affirmative consent, not each encounter

Duh, that's what I've been saying, that's why there has to be ongoing communication about what's wanted. Just because she's enthused about hugging, kissing, fondling, does not mean she's consenting to intercourse. Just because you want her to give you oral sex, doesn't mean you've consented to her sticking that candle up your ass.

People communicate all the time during sex, sometimes verbally, and they also send feedback to partners that clearly indicates whether they are enjoying themselves and an active willing participant or not, and they do this without having to give it much thought. Most people, including college students, want to engage in sex that really is consensual and wanted, by both parties, and that takes the partner's preferences into account, and that excludes what isn't wanted, or what one just isn't in the mood for--and better communication facilitates all of that. You're obviously not one of those people, if the whole notion of affirmative consent troubles you.

Hawkeye knocks on Firefly's door.

Firefly opens it

Hawkeye: Hi

Firefly: Hi, I didn't know you were coming over. Why didn't you call?

Hawkeye: Can I come in?

Firefly: Only for a little while. I have to leave in about 20 minutes.

Firefly then lets Hawkeye in.

Firefly: Let's go in the kitchen. Would you like some coffee or tea?

Hawkeye: Can we have it out on the patio?

Firefly: No, I'd rather have it in the kitchen, I don't want to lose track of the time.

Hawkeye: Could you make me that brewed Hawaiian coffee I like so much, and a sandwich to go with it?

Firefly: Didn't you listen to what I said before? I've got to leave in a little while. Had you bothered to call before coming over, I would have told you not to come.

Hawkeye: Would you rather I left?

Firefly: Yes. I really would like that, that's what's best for me right now.

Hawkeye pouts but leaves. Firefly puts big fat candles on her shopping list. Smile







hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 09:24 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
People communicate all the time during sex, sometimes verbally, and they also send feedback to partners that clearly indicates whether they are enjoying themselves and an active willing participant or not, and they do this without having to give it much thought. Most people, including college students, want to engage in sex that really is consensual and wanted, by both parties, and that takes the partner's preferences into account, and that excludes what isn't wanted, or what one just isn't in the mood for--and better communication facilitates all of that. You're obviously not one of those people, if the whole notion of affirmative consent troubles you.


That would work if the affirmative consent was only the subject of a PSA or ten, it does not work when it is the law. The government intrusion into my sex life and insistence that my relationships must conform to its idea of clean living is worse even then the governments intrusion into my phone and computer activity. This government needs a good thrashing back, the sooner the better.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  3  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 09:44 pm
@firefly,
You were the one who so strongly objected to the Fraternity sign. The humor is questionable but it is humor and not sexual behavior. Did you you not make the argument that the sign should not be allowed to hang?

If you want to believe the bill does something because you feel something must be done, who is going to convince you otherwise?

Changing the standard from "Yes" to "No" is doing nothing though, but I also don't see how it makes the situation any worse (or better) for falsely accused men either.

It still comes down to he said she said unless there is an audience, and the fact of the matter is that on campuses, at least, the deck is stacked against men in these situations.

Quote:
For decades, there has been a unique, growing disparity between the way we treat accused rapists and their accusers. It’s grown because of a relentless pressure to manipulate the rules to increase arrests and convictions in rape cases. The protections against false accusations have been whittled away one by one to make it easier to charge and easier to convict, with the unintended consequence of making it easier to make a false accusation.

In order to more easily file criminal charges, these basic protections have been eliminated:

A required corroboration of a rape taking place; now, the accusation alone is sufficient
Evidence of a clear element of force or the threat of force
The classic element of mens rea (guilty mind)
And in pursuit of convictions, rolled back protections have included:

The ability to cross-examine accusers about past conduct. Rape shield laws insulate an accuser’s past while creating rules to greatly broaden evidence of the accused’s past conduct. (see Fed. Rule Evid. 413 for the most outrageous example.) Even evidence of the accuser’s prior false allegations of rape is inadmissible because it is considered sexual conduct within the meaning of the shield statute.
Intoxication as a defense — while consent by an allegedly intoxicated victim doesn’t matter.
The cautionary jury instruction that rape is a charge easily made but not easily defended.
We need a modest reform to mitigate these changes. This is not a zero-sum game where a benefit to the accused is detrimental to the accuser. There is an obvious benefit to discouraging false charges and denying the ability to use them as blackmail or as a weapon in domestic disputes.

False accusations of rape appear far higher than false accusations of other crimes. One study, conducted over nine years in one Midwest city, found that 41 percent were false; a study of two state universities over three years found 50 percent to be false. Meanwhile, the FBI reports the number of unfounded rape accusations at 8 percent, while the average rate of all unfounded crime reports is at 2 percent. We don’t know the precise figures because rape statistics are unreliable or misleading, and much depends on how police categorize false, unfounded, insufficient evidence, etc., but we know the rate is high.


http://www.salon.com/2011/07/27/dsk_kobe_assange_flatley/

It seems impossible that anyone would deny there are false accusations of rape, but there are a plenty of people who insist they are so few in number as to be insignificant. Anyone discussing this subject (like so many others that are politically charged) is required to include a preface to their statements that goes something like "Rape is a horrible crime and those who actually commit this crime should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law." Well of course it is and of course rapists should be dealt with harshly albeit legally, and yes, we all know that for many years women who have justly accused men of rape have been made to feel as if they are on trial for a crime by defense lawyers, but this should go without saying when reasonably decent people are discussing the issue. If someone brings up false accusation in a discussion of rape, too often the response they receive is an accusation itself: The person is a misogynist, they don't understand or care how horrible an experience rape is for a woman, or they are somehow making excuses in advance for intended behavior or for trying to excuse their past. And should they have the nerve to point this out, they are often accused of trying to turn the tables and making men out to be more the victims than assaulted women.

False accusations may, indeed, be so minimal as to be insignificant, and concern for them based solely on a few high profile anecdotes, but as Black wrote in the linked Salon piece, there is reason to belief they are more of a problem than the people who have made rape a crusade want to admit. In any case, if there is to be a free and honest discussion of the topic of rape (on campus or elsewhere) one should be able to reasonably raise the subject without being accused of anything other than being wrong.

If there is any doubt as to how ridiculously PC this subject can be there is this:

Quote:
In the emotionally charged conversation about rape, few topics are more fraught than that of false allegations. Consider some responses to the news that singer-songwriter Conor Oberst had been falsely accused of sexual assault. Last December a woman writing in the comments section of the website xoJane, going by the name Joanie Faircloth, claimed Oberst raped her when she was a teenager. The charge spread across the Internet; Oberst denied it and brought a libel suit against Faircloth when she refused to retract the story. In July she completely recanted, admitting that she had made it all up to get attention. Yet instead of showing sympathy for the ordeal of the musician—one known for being supportive of feminist issues—some chided him for taking legal action to defend himself against a false, career-damaging charge. In the Daily Dot, pop culture critic Chris Ostendorf decried the lawsuit, arguing that it could intimidate real victims of rape and that it promoted the idea of men as victims of false accusations—even though that’s exactly what Oberst was. After Oberst dropped the suit, Bustle’s Caroline Pate praised his decision and referred to the saga as “a roller-coaster for both parties”—treating the false accuser and the wrongly accused as morally equivalent—and called the revelation of Oberst’s innocence “crushingly disappointing.”


http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/09/false_rape_accusations_why_must_be_pretend_they_never_happen.html

The treatment of Oberst should leave any fair-minded person sick to their stomach.

The following article which I have previously linked was written by two women who, at the time, worked for Slate and the NY Times. In it they suggest that there may be as many as 20,000 false accusations of rape a year. Whether this is a small number in comparison to the total number of reported rapes, it is hardly insignificant, especially when considering the ramifications of being accused of rape.

The author conclude the article with an excellent observation:

Quote:
We're left to draw the following conclusion: False allegations of rape aren't rampant. But they don't have to be to cause terrible trouble. This is a problem that a men's rights movement shouldn't trump up. And also one that feminists can't dismiss.


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2009/10/how_often_do_women_falsely_cry_rape.2.html
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 10:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
In other words, you don't care whether your partner wants particular types of sexual contacts with you or not. You'll do what you want to do regardless.

You are aware, aren't you that this bill only pertains to school policy regarding the standard for consent between college students--each particular sex act between students must be clearly wanted by the partner. The consent must be affirmative.

How awful. The state of California is trying to decrease sexual assaults between students by requiring that affirmative consent be given, or obtained, or clearly indicated, before engaging in various acts of sexual contact. Good grief, the state wants students to only engage in sexual contact that is clearly wanted--and the person initiating the contact must be sure it is wanted before proceeding. That's terrible--limiting students only to genuinely consensual, wanted, sex, non-criminal sex. My God, if everyone did that, the sexual assault numbers on campuses would plummet. What a horrible idea. It's unfair to those who only prefer sex with the unwilling or semi-comatose Smile
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 11:25 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Changing the standard from "Yes" to "No" is doing nothing though, but I also don't see how it makes the situation any worse (or better) for falsely accused men either.

The "yes means yes" affirmative standard for consent is only being added to college student code of conduct policies--"No means no"--indicating absence of consent will also remain in effect, it's part of state law.

The bill is not intended to change the situation, in any way, for anyone who is falsely accused. It's intended to reduce the incidence of sexual assaults--violent crime--on campuses--by trying to insure that all sexual contact between students is wanted.

When discussing how to reduce sexual assaults on campuses, by making consent issues as unambiguous as possible, which "Yes means yes" standards as those in this bill do, the entire issue of false accusations is irrelevant, its not that they are unimportant matters, they are simply irrelevant to the topic this bill, and this thread, is addressing.

You are also confusing college sexual misconduct complaints and investigations, with criminal charges, and prosecutions of rape, in the criminal justice system. Colleges do not charge anyone with rape--a felony crime--they investigate and rule only on complaints of "sexual misconduct", and the harshest punishment they can mete out is expulsion, even for something that, in a court of law, might receive a prison sentence of several years. The criminal laws and the criminal justice system differ significantly from how colleges deal with and investigate and reach conclusions about sexual assaults--its like comparing apples to oranges. And this new bill says that, in California, they will now be using different consent standards as well--"Yes means yes" only applies to campuses.

So, all the material you site pertaining to criminal rape laws is irrelevant in this thread as well. There are protections in the criminal justice system that both the claimant and the accused do not have in the college adjudication system, but there are also protections they have in the college system they don't have in the criminal justice system.

I can't see where you have addressed the actual topic of this thread at all. The issue that new bill addresses and focuses on is consent.

We have another thread on rape, that's been running for over 4 years, and the issues that you raise here, where they are irrelevant to a discussion of "yes means yes" or this new bill, really belong there, or in a new thread.







BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2014 09:02 am
C.J. Spillman is another example of men being guilty unless and until proven innocent and should be punish at once on the word of women accusers alone before any investigations can be done.

In this case, a woman that happen to be in his hotel room in the early AM hours is bringing charges of rape and of course she just happen to have Attorney Gloria Allred on speed dial.

How dare he still be playing for his team seems to be the comments on the internet medias at least.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2014 09:32 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
C.J. Spillman is another example of men being guilty unless and until proven innocent and should be punish at once on the word of women accusers alone before any investigations can be done.

You have a virulent imagination. This is only in the first stages of investigation.
Quote:
In this case, a woman that happen to be in his hotel room in the early AM hours is bringing charges of rape

You weren't there. Pure speculation.
Quote:
How dare he still be playing for his team seems to be the comments on the internet medias at least.

Coach Garrett was firm in his explanation of Cowboys policy on domestic dispute
Quote:
if you're dealing with anything off the field and we can help with, we're here for you. Having said that, there is standards that we have about all off the field behavior and certainly domestic violence applies to that. We're just very clear with how we're going to handle things."
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2014 10:17 am
@panzade,
Quote:
Pure speculation.


Pure speculation that she was in his hotel room in the early AM!!!!!!!

From the news stories no one is questioning that fact.

Quote:
This is only in the first stages of investigation.


How true and already the 'victim' lawyer is asking why he is still being allow to play football join by any number of articles being written over this matter.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2014 02:54 pm
@BillRM,
Is C.J. Spillman a college student in California? No. Is he a college student anywhere? No.

Do the Dallas Cowboys have a "Yes means yes" consent standard for their players? No. Have they punished this player in any way yet? No.

Does this matter with Spillman have anything, at all, to do with the topic of this thread--the new bill in California regarding affirmative consent for sexual contact between college students? NO .

Would you feel better if the complainant was a 15 year old boy rather than a woman? Isn't this all about your almost irrational fear and mistrust of women, and totally unrelated to the topic of this thread? YES! Isn't this about your paranoid view that men are always unfairly abused any time a woman makes a complaint of sexual abuse, because you firmly believe women are all malicious liars, therefore, her word, about what was done to her, should have no validity, unless she's on a slab in the morgue? YES!

Isn't this about the disciplinary policies that the NFL should have in place when players are being investigated for the commission of serious crimes, something that's totally unrelated to the consent standard for sex on California campuses? YES!

Isn't this yet another example of how your own personal obsessions cause you to derail threads, taking them way off topic, so you can harp on your own personal anti-female grievances and their alleged abuse of men? YES!
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2014 04:50 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

In other words, you don't care whether your partner wants particular types of sexual contacts with you or not. You'll do what you want to do regardless.

You are aware, aren't you that this bill only pertains to school policy regarding the standard for consent between college students--each particular sex act between students must be clearly wanted by the partner. The consent must be affirmative.

How awful. The state of California is trying to decrease sexual assaults between students by requiring that affirmative consent be given, or obtained, or clearly indicated, before engaging in various acts of sexual contact. Good grief, the state wants students to only engage in sexual contact that is clearly wanted--and the person initiating the contact must be sure it is wanted before proceeding. That's terrible--limiting students only to genuinely consensual, wanted, sex, non-criminal sex. My God, if everyone did that, the sexual assault numbers on campuses would plummet. What a horrible idea. It's unfair to those who only prefer sex with the unwilling or semi-comatose Smile


Yes, I am also aware that

1) "SAFETY!" is almost always the excuse used by the state to remove our freedom

2) "SAFETY! OF THE CHILDREN!" is often used to acclimate us to the removal of rights which are in the pipeline

3) the feminsts have long promised us the ENTHUSIASTIC! YES!! is the intended future legally required level of consent for all

4) the " YES" said often level of consent in this law will absolutely be used to criminalize BDSM just as soon as the feminist/state cooperative thinks that they can get away with it, which obviously I have a problem with.

5) according to me the state has already crossed the line of what is the justified level of intrusion into its citizens erotic lives and relationship choices. Any further moves to coerce the citizens into clean living will be opposed by me.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2014 05:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
6) Uni campuses are on average more safe than the rest of America, which is in turn the most safe that it has been in generations. "CRISIS ON CAMPUS!" is a fraud that has been used by the Feminist/State cooperative to swindle the generally stupid American people out of our freedom.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2014 06:36 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
"SAFETY!" is almost always the excuse used by the state to remove our freedom

Student safety is a legitimate concern for colleges and universities--they are obligated to try to insure safety for their students.

A student has just as much of a right not to be housed in a dorm with faulty wiring as she does to sleep safely in her dorm room bed and not awaken to find another student on top of her, penetrating her sexually.

What "freedom" is being taken from students by instituting an affirmative standard of consent? The "freedom" to engage in non-consensual sex, sex that is unwanted by the other party? Students can still do that, if they want to violate state sexual assault laws, as well as student policy--there is no "freedom" or "right" to force or engage in unwanted sexual contact, non-consensual contact, with another without legal or disciplinary consequence.

Requiring a "Yes" beforehand to whether a particular sexual contact is wanted is a far clearer indication of consent, and agreement, and a much better way of preventing sexual assault, than waiting until a line has already been crossed, a sexual assault has already happened or about to happen, and the partner is saying, "NO".
Quote:
the " YES" said often level of consent in this law will absolutely be used to criminalize BDSM just as soon as the feminist/state cooperative thinks that they can get away with it, which obviously I have a problem with.

Well I have a problem with it if you think you can just bound and gag your partner without getting affirmative consent beforehand, for that, and for anything else you might do to her when she is physically unable to withdraw consent, resist, or indicate non-consent. And I'd have the same problem with any woman who'd do those same things without first getting affirmative consent.
http://images.elephantjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/rapebook.jpg
Because you're into Bondage/Dominance/Sadism {or Submission)/Masochism, which any sort of consent requirement might interfere with, it's irrational for you to want everyone else's freedom--the freedom to express what they want, and don't want, in the way of sexual contact, and their legal right not to have those boundaries violated, compromised because you think it might cramp your particular BDSM sexual lifestyle. I have no problem with things you and your partner might do, as long as they are mutually agreed upon beforehand. So, if anything, I think an affirmative type of consent would afford you the best protection legally. I'm surprised you'd oppose it.






0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2014 06:46 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Uni campuses are on average more safe than the rest of America, which is in turn the most safe that it has been in generations. "CRISIS ON CAMPUS!" is a fraud


Hawkeye what get me is a very large percent of the total population had been in colleges themselves so they should know up front that the very idea that 20 to 25 percents of women having been victims of sexual assault during their undergraduate years is complete nonsense.

That is even without taking the time to look at the details of the phony surveys that had reached such conclusions.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2014 12:57 am
@ehBeth,
Huh? Still has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. The rights are still with the accused, just like they always have been.
 

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