11
   

George Galloway Full of Crap When He Says Jews have no right to be in Palestine

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2014 06:32 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Of course, the Jews were expelled by the Romans in the second century. So Jews have not lived there continuously for two thousand years. That's just a small detail to the Zioniests.

Yes indeed. As details go, it couldn't be smaller.


Setanta wrote:
The Zionists are no better than the Islamists like ISIS.

ISIS cuts the heads off children and mounts them on poles.

I doubt many Zionists are doing that. I'll self-identify as a Zionist, and I certainly haven't cut anyone's head off.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2014 06:33 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:
I am well beyond anger!

You joined with the Palestinians in choosing war with Israel when Israel was offering peace. The consequences of that choice are your own fault.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2014 07:36 pm
@oralloy,
Offering peace while stealing their land is not peace by any definition of that word.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2014 08:07 pm
Yeah, when the Zionists want to kill women and children, they use helicopter gunships.
InfraBlue
 
  4  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2014 10:30 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
JoeBruno wrote:
The issue is recognition, not evacuation. Jews were living on that land before the time of Jesus. The New Testament says so.

That's a rationalization based on religious mythology.

It is a historical fact that the Israelites were there for a good thousand years before Jesus.

One thing is Israelites, another thing is Jews.


oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
Europeans whose ancestors converted to the religion do no have more rights to Palestine than the Palestinians who are indigenous thereof.

You have two major factual errors there.

The Europeans that you are referring to did not convert to Judaism, but are the actual descendants of the Israelites.

The Palestinians are in no way indigenous to the West Bank. They come from somewhere else.

My facts are not errors.

You don't know that these Europeans are actual descendants of the Israelites. What's more, most Israelites weren't Jewish, they were polytheists. You're conflating Jews with Israelites.

According to genetic research, the Palestinians are indigenous to all of Palestine including the West Bank.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2014 10:50 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Yeah, when the Zionists want to kill women and children, they use helicopter gunships.

It is unlikely that many Zionists have ever wanted to kill civilians. Maybe an occasional extremist, but nothing very common.

I am quite certain that any Zionist extremist who has attempted to kill civilians, did not use a helicopter in their attempt.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2014 11:12 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
JoeBruno wrote:
The issue is recognition, not evacuation. Jews were living on that land before the time of Jesus. The New Testament says so.

That's a rationalization based on religious mythology.

It is a historical fact that the Israelites were there for a good thousand years before Jesus.

One thing is Israelites, another thing is Jews.

Same thing.


InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
Europeans whose ancestors converted to the religion do no have more rights to Palestine than the Palestinians who are indigenous thereof.

You have two major factual errors there.
The Europeans that you are referring to did not convert to Judaism, but are the actual descendants of the Israelites.
The Palestinians are in no way indigenous to the West Bank. They come from somewhere else.

My facts are not errors.

I was able to point out two major errors in what you said.


InfraBlue wrote:
You don't know that these Europeans are actual descendants of the Israelites.

Their genetic linage to the Middle East has been made quite clear in DNA studies.


InfraBlue wrote:
What's more, most Israelites weren't Jewish, they were polytheists.

They were only polytheistic before the Babylonian exile. After the Babylonian exile they were monotheistic.

Polytheism does not mean they weren't Jewish before the exile. They may have had multiple deities, but the Hebrew deity was the foremost.


InfraBlue wrote:
You're conflating Jews with Israelites.

Yes. And rightly so.


InfraBlue wrote:
According to genetic research, the Palestinians are indigenous to all of Palestine including the West Bank.

That is incorrect. Genetic research shows that the Palestinians came from somewhere else.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2014 01:59 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Same thing.

Nuh-uh.


oralloy wrote:
I was able to point out two major errors in what you said.

Nuh-uh.

oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
You don't know that these Europeans are actual descendants of the Israelites.

Their genetic linage to the Middle East has been made quite clear in DNA studies.


One thing is genetic linage to the Middle East, quite another is descent of the Israelites. You're conflating these two as well.

oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
What's more, most Israelites weren't Jewish, they were polytheists.

They were only polytheistic before the Babylonian exile. After the Babylonian exile they were monotheistic.


The various people of Palestine were polytheistic up until the time of the emergence of Christianity and Rabbinical Judaism in the First Century.

The Israelites had long since disappeared centuries earlier.

oralloy wrote:
Polytheism does not mean they weren't Jewish before the exile. They may have had multiple deities, but the Hebrew deity was the foremost.

Now you're conflating Hebrews and Jews. The Hebrews were polytheistic as well, not having a deity but various deities. The idea of a singular "Hebrew" deity comes from the mythologies of the priests of the JHWH cult which would go on to become Judaism.


oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
You're conflating Jews with Israelites.

Yes. And rightly so.

No. You're merely convoluting the two for political expediency.

oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
According to genetic research, the Palestinians are indigenous to all of Palestine including the West Bank.

That is incorrect. Genetic research shows that the Palestinians came from somewhere else.
Nuh-uh.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2014 02:53 pm
@InfraBlue,
Some 'real' history of the Palestinians.
Quote:
Where did the name Palestine come from?
The name Palestine is given to the region spreading from eastern Mediterranean coast to the Jordan Valley to the area covering Galilee Lake in the north and southern Negev Desert. The origin of this word lies in “Plesheth”. This is a name appearing frequently in the Bible and have started being known as “Philistine” in English. The world root of “Plesheth” lies in the word “palah” was is a term used generally in the sense of migratory, referring to the Palestinian’s conquest of the coast of Mediterranean. These people were mostly originates of Asia Minor and Greece and gradually became a part of the Arab world.


The Philistines entered in this region not all at one time but in different eras. The first group reached here in the pre-patriarchal period and made a settlement in Gerar, south of Beersheba. The second group arrived from Crete and settled in the southern coastal area where it divided made different settlements into Gat, Ekron, Ashdod, Ascalon and Gaza. These districts were occupied by the foreign settlers coming mostly from the Mediterranean islands.

In the fifth century BC, the region of eastern coast of the Mediterranean started being called as “the Philistine Syria”, a term coined by the Greek historian, Herodotus and used in its Greek language form. In AD 135, the Emperor Hadrian blotted out the name “Provincia Judea” and renamed it “Provincia Syria Palaestina”. This was the Latin version of the Greek name and soon became a name to be used as an administrative unit. This name was shortened to Palaestina and the name “Palestine” was derived from it as a modern and anglicized version.

No changes occurred to this name until after the fourth century had passed when Palestine was divided in to three regions, following the imperial reorganization. The name Palestine was used by the Christian Crusades to regard all three of the divided regions in general and continued to be used for the regions on both sides of the Jordan River in general. Palestine went under the rule of the Ottoman Turks for 400 years where its administration was attached to Damascus. After the fall of the Ottoman Empire in World War I, the name Palestine was revived and was applied to the land falling under the British Mandate for Palestine. Arabs use the name “Falastin” for Palestine which is an Arab pronunciation of the Roman word “Palaestina.”


5th century BC is a very long history for the Palestinians of that area.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2014 05:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
This explanation conflates the word "Palestine" with the people of Palestine and denigrates the Palestinians to a logomachy.

According to genetic research the Palestinian peoples have been there since before the Fifth Century BC and are made up of groups that have inhabited Palestine since humans first arrived there from Africa, the Philistines being just one, later group. The earliest group of people were the Canaanites of whom the Hebrews were a part. As Palestine was a region dominated by powerful empires throughout the millennia many people were transferred through conquest out of there to other parts of the Middle East and the area was repopulated with people from these places.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2014 05:18 pm
@InfraBlue,
Also, there was a period when the Romans killed or made the Jews move out of Palestine. Their absence proves they have not occupied that country for the period they claim.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2014 05:35 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Sure, but this goes back to the point I made about Zionists conflating their Jewishness with Jews in Palestine at the time of the Romans. The Zionists, those Ashkenazim who formulated the ideology,derive their Jewishness, by and large, from Europeans who converted to the religion. What Semitic origins they may have traces to the Middle East in general and not to Palestine, or Judea or Jerusalem in particular.
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2014 05:58 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:

5th century BC is a very long history for the Palestinians of that area.


The Palestinian people

The Palestinian people, also referred to as Palestinians, are the modern descendants of the peoples who have lived in Palestine over the centuries, and who today are largely culturally and linguistically Arab due to Arabization of the region.[16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23] Despite various wars and exoduses, roughly one half of the world's Palestinian population continues to reside in historic Palestine, the area encompassing the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Israel.[24] In this combined area, as of 2004, Palestinians constituted 49% of all inhabitants,[25] encompassing the entire population of the Gaza Strip (1.6 million), the majority of the population of the West Bank (approximately 2.3 million versus close to 500,000 Jewish Israeli citizens which includes about 200,000 in East Jerusalem), and 16.5% of the population of Israel proper as Arab citizens of Israel.[26] Many are Palestinian refugees or internally displaced Palestinians, including more than a million in the Gaza Strip,[27] three-quarters of a million in the West Bank,[28] and about a quarter of a million in Israel proper. Of the Palestinian population who live abroad, known as the Palestinian diaspora, more than half are stateless lacking citizenship in any country.[29] 3.24 million of the diaspora population live in neighboring Jordan[30] where they make up approximately half the population, 1.5 million live between Syria and Lebanon, a quarter of a million in Saudi Arabia, with Chile's half a million representing the largest concentration outside the Arab world.

Genetic analysis suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the southern Levant whose core may reach back to prehistoric times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2014 06:09 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
This is the fact that seems to create confusion.
Quote:
Genetic analysis suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the southern Levant whose core may reach back to prehistoric times.


They ARE THE SAME PEOPLE genetically and by religion and culture.

I have observed many Arab-looking Jews practicing their prayers at the West Wall, Jewish functions, and marriage ceremonies in Palestine-Israel (Jerusalem).

Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2014 06:18 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
From my personal archives:

Article written by author Paul Findley, Professor Emeritus and former Congressman

More on the Palestinians

At the time of the 1917 Balfour Not only were a people already in Palestine, but they had a well-established society that was recognized by other Arabs as uniquely "Palestinian." It consisted of respected intellectual and professional classes, political organizations, and a thriving agrarian economy that was expanding into the crude Declaration there were about 600,000 Arabs in Palestine and about 60,000 Jews. Over the next thirty years the ratio narrowed as Jewish immigration increased especially as a result of the anti-Semitic policies of Adolph Hitler. However, on the eve of the 1947 UN plan to partition Palestine, Arabs still were a large majority, with Jews amounting to only one-third of the population——608,225 Jews to 1,2237,332 Arabs. When Max Nordau, an early Zionist and friend of Zangwill, learned in 1897 there was an indigenous Arab population in Palestine, he exclaimed: "I didn't know that! We are committing an injustice!"

The beginnings of modern industry. Observes scholar John Quigley: "The Arab population had been stable for hundreds of years. There was no substantial in-migration in the nineteenth century."
*******

It was only strong pressure exerted by the Truman administration that secured passage of the UN Partition Plan by the General Assembly on November 29, 1947, by a vote of 33 to 13 with 10 abstentions and 1 absent. Among those nations that succumbed to US pressure were France, Ethiopia, Haiti, Liberia, Luxembourg, Paraguay and the Philippines. Former Under Secretary of State Sumner Welles wrote: "By direct order of the White House every form of pressure, direct and indirect, was brought to bear by American official upon those countries outside of the Muslim world that were known to be either uncertain or opposed to partition. Representatives or intermediaries were employed by the White House to make sure that the necessary majority would at length be secured."

The partition plan adopted as Resolution 181, divided Palestine between "independent Arab and Jewish states and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem. Future Israeli Foreign Minister Moshe Sharett argued that the resolution had "binding force," and Israel's Declaration of Independence cited it three times as legal justification for the establishment of the state. But the General Assembly, in contrast to the Security Council, has no powers beyond making recommendations. I cannot enforce its recommendations nor are they legally binding except on internal UN Matters.

The Palestinians, as was their right, rejected the plan because it granted the Jews more than half of Palestine despite the fact that they made up only one-third of the population and owned only 6.59 percent of the land. In addition, the Palestinians maintained that the United Nations had no legal right to recommend partition when the majority inhabitants of Palestine opposed it. Nonetheless, by rejecting partition Palestinians did not reject their own claim to an independent nation. Their opposition was to a Jewish state established on Palestinian land, not to the Jews' right as a people.

Jewish leader David Ben-Gurion advised his colleagues to accept partition because, he told them, "There is no such thing in history as a final arrangement––not with regard to the regime, not with regard to borders, and not with regard to international agreements."

One of Zionism's great pioneers, Nahum Goldmann, expressed pragmatism in a different vein: "There is no hope for a Jewish state which has to face another 50 years of struggle against Arab enemies."
0 Replies
 
carloslebaron
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2014 07:17 pm
@ Joe Bruno

Quote:
Joe, if 160 of your 192 neighbours agreed that a family should move in to the ground floor of your house and make full use of your garden, would you be happy and just sit back and go with the flow?

Just asking


The analogy is good but the scenario is different.

Lets accept that the establishment of the State of Israel has been imposed against the will of the Arab nations, but remember that there were wars the Arab nations made against Israel, with the intention of disassembling that country and make it a Palestinian State.

However, the Israelis WON THE WARS, and by such, they have all the right not only to stay as the State of Israel but also to put out every Palestinian who opposes the sovereign of the State of Israel.

In my opinion, the primary strategy of migrating by force Palestinians out of the State of Israel in the years before and after 1948 was the best, because the exiled people assimilated to the neighbor countries. The bad move was to stop the forced migration because worldwide pressure, and now, the Palestinians are a pain in the butt for Israelis.

You can't have peace having a country inside another country, forget about it. The Israelis have the full right to be alone in that land because they fought for it, not because their ancestors were the owners and similar crap.

The winners might take it all, and this is the right of Israelis to live in that land.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2014 07:31 pm
@carloslebaron,
You wrote (with much ignorance about international law),
Quote:
However, the Israelis WON THE WARS, and by such, they have all the right not only to stay as the State of Israel but also to put out every Palestinian who opposes the sovereign of the State of Israel.


Why are the Jews of Israel taking land from Palestinians who have never opposed the sovereign state of Israel? They are indiscriminate in their settlements of land previously occupied by the Palestinians. They have stoned and shot Palestinians if they refused to move. Those actions are of an tyrant state, not a democracy.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2014 12:40 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
One thing is Israelites, another thing is Jews.

Same thing.

Nuh-uh.

Your denial of history is goofy.


InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
You have two major factual errors there.
The Europeans that you are referring to did not convert to Judaism, but are the actual descendants of the Israelites.
The Palestinians are in no way indigenous to the West Bank. They come from somewhere else.

My facts are not errors.

I was able to point out two major errors in what you said.

Nuh-uh.

There are quite clearly two errors that I listed above.


InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
You don't know that these Europeans are actual descendants of the Israelites.

Their genetic linage to the Middle East has been made quite clear in DNA studies.

One thing is genetic linage to the Middle East, quite another is descent of the Israelites.

DNA shows that they are descended from an Iron Age culture that rose after the fall of the Bronze Age Canaanites.

The Israelites were an Iron Age culture that rose after the fall of the Bronze Age Canaanites.


InfraBlue wrote:
One thing is genetic linage to the Middle East, quite another is descent of the Israelites. You're conflating these two as well.

No conflation. I am quite clearly referring to direct descendents of the Israelites.


InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
What's more, most Israelites weren't Jewish, they were polytheists.

They were only polytheistic before the Babylonian exile. After the Babylonian exile they were monotheistic.

The various people of Palestine were polytheistic up until the time of the emergence of Christianity and Rabbinical Judaism in the First Century.
The Israelites had long since disappeared centuries earlier.

You are wrong two more times:

The Israelites returned after the end of the Babylonian exile.

They were monotheistic when they did so.


InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Polytheism does not mean they weren't Jewish before the exile. They may have had multiple deities, but the Hebrew deity was the foremost.

Now you're conflating Hebrews and Jews.

And rightly so.


InfraBlue wrote:
The Hebrews were polytheistic as well, not having a deity but various deities. The idea of a singular "Hebrew" deity comes from the mythologies of the priests of the JHWH cult which would go on to become Judaism.

They were only polytheistic up to the Babylonian exile.

After the Babylonian exile, they were very monotheistic.


InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
You're conflating Jews with Israelites.

Yes. And rightly so.

No. You're merely convoluting the two for political expediency.

The reason I am doing it because it is a fact that the Israeli Jews are direct descendants of the Israelites.


InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
According to genetic research, the Palestinians are indigenous to all of Palestine including the West Bank.

That is incorrect. Genetic research shows that the Palestinians came from somewhere else.

Nuh-uh.

Your denial of genetics is goofy.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2014 12:40 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
According to genetic research the Palestinian peoples have been there since before the Fifth Century BC

Wrong yet again. Genetic research shows that the Palestinians came from somewhere else.


InfraBlue wrote:
and are made up of groups that have inhabited Palestine since humans first arrived there from Africa,

Balderdash.


InfraBlue wrote:
The earliest group of people were the Canaanites of whom the Hebrews were a part.

Hey, you actually got something right.

The Canaanite culture inhabited the region during the Bronze Age.

This then broke apart into separate Iron Age cultures, one of which was the Israelites.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2014 12:40 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
The Zionists, those Ashkenazim who formulated the ideology,derive their Jewishness, by and large, from Europeans who converted to the religion. What Semitic origins they may have traces to the Middle East in general and not to Palestine, or Judea or Jerusalem in particular.

Wrong again. DNA shows that they are the direct descendants of the Israelites.
0 Replies
 
 

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