10
   

Our Hearts Are Breaking

 
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 02:53 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
First of all, I apologize for referring to you as orally in my response to max. It was an error and not an intended as a perversion of your actually screen-name. I guess "orally" is be pretty tame compared to what others have used but it still wasn't my intent.

That's OK. I recognized it as a typo. I might have corrected it. (I have an irresistible urge to correct typos when I see them in what I quote.)


Finn dAbuzz wrote:
The Palestinians aren't vermin. There are many murderers among them who seek annihilation of Israel, not peace, and too many who while not bloodying their own hands support and cheer the murderers, but classifying an entire people as despicable goes too far and is not, in my mind defensible. If you care to try, go ahead.

Is there even a single Palestinian who thinks that the Palestinians should negotiate a fair peace with Israel? Even one?

I don't see any peace or human decency from the Palestinians. All I see is a unified wall of naked aggression.


Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Israel, in my opinion, deserves criticism for the expansion of settlements in the occupied territories. It is unnecessarily provocative and involves the seizing of land from Palestinians. Regardless of what their original intent may or may not have been, it is quite clear that expansion is an obstacle to peace. There are enough obstacles without creating more.

The settlements are a faux obstacle though. Almost all of the settlement construction is on land that Israel would have kept due to land swaps if an agreement had been reached. Also, Israel has an established history of removing settlements when they withdraw from land that those settlements are on. They did so in both the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula.

The Palestinians didn't start objecting to the settlement construction until Netanyahu took office. Previous to that, the Palestinians refused to negotiate because they claimed Olmert did not have a mandate. Once Netanyahu won the election though, they needed to come up with a different excuse for not negotiating.

Settlement construction also gives Netanyahu a useful way to compromise at the peace table, as he has been able to use additional settlement construction to mollify hardliners who were objecting to the compromises that he was offering the Palestinians.

If Israel were to just unilaterally stop settlement construction because the Palestinians demanded it, all the Palestinians would do is start demanding something else before they negotiate. And if Israel gave up on that one too, the Palestinians would switch to yet another demand. If Israel followed that course, they would soon give up everything to the Palestinians while having gotten nothing in return.

And most telling of all, early in Obama's first term he convinced Israel to halt settlement construction for 10 months. Halting settlement construction didn't bring the Palestinians to the negotiating table.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 02:54 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Oralloy's ugly rhetoric,
Oralloy's pathological hatred,

You're being silly. It is quite reasonable for me to condemn the Palestinians for what they do.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 02:56 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
At this point a focus on the perfect or "fair" resolution of the conflict is pointless. The best and only possible solution, short of genocide, is the establishment of an independent, autonomous Palestinian state.

Yes, but the borders of that state are going to be a pressing issue.

The West Bank overlooks most of Israel the same way the Golan Heights overlooks northern Israel. There is no way Israel can afford to allow the Palestinians to use the West Bank as a platform for showering them with rockets.

Therefore the Palestinians, since they refuse to make peace, cannot be allowed to remain in the West Bank. They are going to have to be removed and relocated to the Gaza Strip before they become an autonomous state.


Finn dAbuzz wrote:
The term "viable" when used in conjunction with a "Palestinian State" is terribly loaded, and yet another stumbling block to resolution.
Certainly proposals have been made with the intent to create a Palestine without any hope of economic sustainability beyond an impoverished basket-case status, but these are made with the same degree of "bad faith" inherent in the demand for the "Right of Return." To the extent Israel’s leaders hold on to them they must set them aside and return to “good faith” negotiations.

Israel's leaders have always negotiated in good faith.

Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians a viable state.

Ariel Sharon would have pulled back to borders that would have allowed a viable state, if pulling out of Lebanon and Gaza had not resulted in rockets being showered on Israeli civilians.

Ehud Olmert offered the Palestinians a viable state.

We don't know the details of what Benjamin Netanyahu offered, but I'm quite sure it was viable.

However, negotiations are over now, and they are over for good.
0 Replies
 
usmankhalid665
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 05:00 am
http://www.vtjp.org/images/Gaza-air-strikes--001.jpg
Air strikes of israel, murder of childer. Was this guy a terrorist?
usmankhalid665
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 05:04 am
http://www.vtjp.org/images/Gaza-update-01010-002.jpg
Israel Air strikes in Ghaza.
usmankhalid665
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 05:06 am
http://www.vtjp.org/images/_29435_Gaza_victims.jpg
What do you think that these palestinian children are terrorists?
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 05:39 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
maxdancona wrote:
You are making vile attacks on human beings based solely on their ethnicity. You are calling them "vermin", accusing them of "loving to murder children" based only on their ethnic group. And you are saying they should be driven from the land, or shot based only on their ethnic group.


Oralloy has demonstrated his hatred for another ethnic group, the Italians. After Italy found Amanda Knox guilty, he said that "all new born Italian babies should be ground into food for dogs to eat." He has said terrible things about the Italians and he claims he's "THE GOOD MORAL GUY." Poor man, doesn't realize the various forms ethnic hatred takes.

Oralloy has attacked the suffering mother of the murdered victim, Meredith Kercher, a Britisher....wonder when he'll start in on all Britons. I have never heard such vile filth uttered against a mournful mother before. It is oppressively hard to read the perniciously heinous words he spouts.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 05:39 am
@usmankhalid665,
usmankhalid665 wrote:
What do you think that these palestinian children are terrorists?

Yawn. The dead children gambit again?

Boring!
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 05:39 am
@usmankhalid665,
usmankhalid665 wrote:
Israel Air strikes in Ghaza.

Moar pleeze!
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 06:06 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:
He has said terrible things about the Italians and he claims he's "THE GOOD MORAL GUY."

Not that there was any question about how horrible the Palestinians are, but it is noteworthy that once someone gets so despicably evil that they support sending innocent people to prison, they automatically start supporting the Palestinians.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 06:12 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:
Oralloy has demonstrated his hatred for another ethnic group, the Italians.

Nonsense! I always made it very clear that my condemnation was directed at the nationality and not the ethnicity.
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 12:39 pm
@usmankhalid665,
Quote:
Air strikes of israel, murder of childern. Was this child a terrorist?


The killing of all those Palestinian children is OVERKILL Now Israel under pretext will grab more and more land. I sincerely hope the world will not allow the zionist nation get away with it! As far as the American Congress is concerned, Israel can do no wrong. In fact, under the current congress, Israel could wipe out the Palestinians almost 99% and the only mild words the US will speak to Israel: "that was not a very nice thing to do." I am grateful Europe is not in the back pocket of Israel.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 02:21 pm
@usmankhalid665,
If you are posting photos of dead Palestinian children to counter oralloy's contention that all Palestinians are "vermin," I think it's an effective response but I don't see the point of posting this photo of the aftermath of an Israeli attack on Gaza, unless it is to criticize Israel.

If this is the case you should be aware that this entire thread can be taken up with dueling photos of the aftermath of violent actions taken by both sides. If you're prepared to criticize both sides for their violence this might be an appropriate post. Somehow I don't think that's your intention though.

In any case it is disingenuous to criticize Israel for striking at Hamas in Gaza, since Hamas deliberately spreads itself out within urban areas, populated by civilian women and children.

From a tactical standpoint this makes a lot of sense, and it's one long adopted by terrorists and insurgents. Either the civilians serve as human shields or their deaths serve in the propaganda front of the conflict.

Perhaps the civilians are willing to accept this risk as their contribution to what they believe is a righteous war, but that doesn't immunize Hamas from responsibility for these children's deaths.

This is the nature of an asymmetric conflict where one side is, militarily, much more powerful. Hamas cannot field an army that would last one day in a conventional battle with Israel. If they are to engage in combat with Israel they must follow an unconventional strategy (which at this point in history has actually become quite conventional in its own right).

They, militarily, are the aggressors; the vast majority of military action taken by Israel in this conflict has been in retaliation for acts of terrorism (including rocket strikes) by Hamas. No matter what one thinks of Israel's treatment of Palestinians, beyond military actions, it is ridiculous to expect it to simply endure the attacks of Hamas without making some effort to stop or reduce them.

Since Hamas is dispersed within urban areas, it doesn't provide Israel with a target it can attack without the risk of collateral casualties. Again this makes strategic sense, but it carries with it a price.

Theoretically, Israel could consider the Palestinian governed territories as a national enemy, declare war and then proceed to bring them completely to their knees and begin a very ugly process of occupation intended to search out and destroy all members of Hamas and their most active sympathizers. This is something the Third Reich or the Roman Empire might try. Clearly, Israel will not take this route for a number of reasons so they must adopt a different strategy.

Based on intelligence reports (which despite Mossad's high level of expertise, are not perfect) they respond to Hamas attacks by sending in Special Forces to assassinate Hamas leaders and aerial attacks to destroy locations believed to be Hamas hideouts. No matter how much care they take to minimize civilian casualties, current smart weapon technology is just not smart enough to eliminate them entirely (as your photo illustrates). Your photo also demonstrates that Israel is trying to minimize civilian casualties as the most effective, purely military response in this case would have been to level an area three to four times as large, or at least to level to the ground the buildings that were targeted. The scene in the photo is clearly one of destruction, but given the weapons available to the Israeli's it could have been much, much worse.

I would hope, and I do believe, that Hamas doesn't actually seek the deaths of Palestinian children, for propaganda purposes, as they would certainly prefer it if Israel didn't retaliate at all, but they know this will never be the case and so they know Palestinian children will die. I firmly believe though that, as noted before, this is not an entirely undesired outcome for them as it, clearly, fuels outrage toward Israel, and surprisingly and quite sickeningly more so for most of Israel's critics than the deaths of Israeli children. The more they can incite the outrage of Israel's critics, the more pressure they believe will be put on Israel to submit to their demands, and they are right. Whether that increased pressure will have the desired effect is another matter though.

It is pretty clear that if all terrorist attacks by Palestinians against Israel ceased tomorrow, and were not resumed, Israel would not be sending hit squads into Gaza or dropping bombs on buildings in which children lived. They might not cease the expansion of settlements or they might continue to restrict freedom of Palestinian movement or the Gaza blockade, but any reasonable rationale for such actions would cease to exist. Not only would this make it difficult for Israel’s allies (such as they are) to refrain from all out condemnation, it would eliminate the rationale for many Israelis who are inclined to see these practices end, supporting them because of security concerns. That Israeli has a functioning democracy (unlike Gaza or the West Bank) is actually an advantage for the Palestinians.

Clearly Israel has not conceded to all of the Palestinian demands and it is extremely unlikely that they ever will, but it is simply false to argue that they have not made expansive concessions during negotiations, which, while perhaps not responding to all of the legitimate concerns of Palestinians, would have created a foundation of peace upon which to build trust and eventually additional concessions.

Unfortunately, it is also clear, that Palestinian leaders are not truly interested in putting an end to the bloodshed, and moving towards not only peaceful co-existence but even eventually a relationship of true alliance (Who would have thought during WWII that the US would have its current relationship with Germany and Japan?). For too many of them the eradication of a Jewish State in the region is a goal they will not surrender.

It is the Palestinians who have been intransigent in negotiations, who insist on impossible demands. They and not Israel that are the impediments to peace and those that actually have the power to alter their current positions are the ones responsible for the deaths of Palestinian children.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 02:48 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
You're describing USA colonial history, Finn. Much whining about being oppressed and all. The Palestinians ARE being oppressed, not just by Israel but also by the USA.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 06:37 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

You're describing USA colonial history, Finn. Much whining about being oppressed and all. The Palestinians ARE being oppressed, not just by Israel but also by the USA.


In my opinion, the Palestineans have been neglected (as bad as oppression) by the Arab countries that allowed the Palestineans to remain without a country, rather than making them citizens of one of the other Arab countries. In my opinion, this was done to use the Palestineans as a burr under Israel's proverbial saddle - sacrifice the Palestineans, since four wars could not eradicate Israel. With friends like that, who needs enemies?
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 07:25 pm
@Foofie,
Your opinion is wrong.

The Palestinians share a common genetic ancestry with Israelis, much more than they do with Arabs.

Studies of DNA show that Palestinians belong in Israel as much as the Jews... they descend from the same people.


oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 09:59 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:
The killing of all those Palestinian children is OVERKILL

The dead children gambit is boring. Can you come up with some other lies, just for the sake of a little variety?


Moment-in-Time wrote:
Now Israel under pretext will grab more and more land.

No they won't.


Moment-in-Time wrote:
I sincerely hope the world will not allow the zionist nation get away with it!

Any move to act against Israel will be neutralized by the IDF.


Moment-in-Time wrote:
I am grateful Europe is not in the back pocket of Israel.

You are likely also grateful that Europe helped the Palestinians torpedo the Oslo Accords. You yourself helped the Palestinians torpedo the latest peace negotiations under Secretary Kerry.

Just remember whose fault it is when the Palestinians are all being cleared out of the West Bank.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 09:59 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
If you are posting photos of dead Palestinian children to counter oralloy's contention that all Palestinians are "vermin," I think it's an effective response but I don't see the point of posting this photo of the aftermath of an Israeli attack on Gaza, unless it is to criticize Israel.

I am skeptical of any claims or photos of dead children. The Palestinians have too much of a history of faking such things.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 10:00 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Studies of DNA show that Palestinians belong in Israel as much as the Jews... they descend from the same people.

Studies of DNA show that the Palestinians are from a neighboring kingdom, and are not descended from the Jews.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 10:36 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Studies of DNA show that the Palestinians are from a neighboring kingdom


Does this mean that as least you have stopped claiming that they are vermin?
 

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