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Thu 19 Jun, 2014 09:20 pm
A good female friend of mine who is "liberal feminist" and a proactive member in the LGBT community and I were discussing progressive moves to all gays to marry, but within our discussion, we somehow drifted from discussing judicial progressivism, to my opinion on thinking that transgender men/women, are still their biological sex.
She gave me a scenario of a transgender man, now a woman, approaching me and asking me out on a date. I told my friend is response I wouldn't. She asked why. I said, that "the whole concept of transsexuality is about a social, cultural and psychological phase of transitioning from one state of being to another."
My friend thinks that my idea is inherently discriminatory because I don't accept the person who they are. But my argument from that was that I can accept a person's lifestyle, but how do I convince myself that, a transgendered man is really a woman when my ideas of a woman is incompatible to transsexuality? Is it really discriminatory to conceive a transsexual man as a man, even though I accept their full transition to being a woman?
@Buttermilk,
Your friend is crazy!
If she has the freedom to choose her own sexuality identity, including who she finds attractive, why can't you? She makes only finds a certain portion of humanity sexually attractive and the rest of us are excluded, if you are discriminating than so is she.
There is an inherent contradiction in her ridiculous argument.
@Buttermilk,
In modern liberalism yes it is wrong. According to them you must accept a person for who they say they are, you are not allowed to make judgements. The exception is for the modern day niggers and fags, those who it is deemed ok to hate. That would be your non believers in the theory that all races and groups are equal, your rapists and phediophiles, anyone who challenges the feminists, the man made global warming deniers, the ....
@Buttermilk,
I'd consider listening to your friend.
I'm trying to remember the name of the movie that at the time surprised me a lot.
Anyway, I know more now about people and their deep sense of themselves.
@maxdancona,
Well I had to ask her again to clarify her position cause I was still confused. Basically, from what I get, a trans-man was always a woman it is just that their sex organs didn't match to how they perceived themselves. But even if that is the case, how can I perceive a trans-man as a woman when the most obvious which is the appearance may say otherwise? I mean, I can accept the transition but how am I supposed to convince myself that a transwoman is really a woman?
@ossobuco,
But how is my position discriminatory? As I before if a transwoman says "she" is a woman, I can accept that. There is no judgment there. However when it comes to what I look for in a potential mate I just don't think a transwoman is someone I would date. It is not because of their transsexuality, it is because I prefer a biological woman. I don't see how preference could turn into discrimination.
@Buttermilk,
Well.... it is discrimination. You are choosing who to date based on their gender. That is definition of discrimination.
The point is the hypocrisy of your friend who practices the exact same sort of discrimination (assuming that she will refuse to date men based on their gender). A sexual orientation of any sort is discrimination.
A person who doesn't discriminate will have sex with anyone, regardless of gender, religious/political views, age, physical condition or marital status.
I am very discriminating about who I choose to have sex with. I don't think that is a bad thing.
I am wondering if a corollary would be the situation where one only wants to marry someone of the same religious faith, and then meets someone (romantically) who converted to his/her faith. And, if there is a nagging feeling that to marry someone in one's same religious faith also has the proviso that one should have been born into a family of that faith, is that discriminatory, or do we have the ethical right to have provisos in our preferences.
I say we do, since we are private citizens, and can be discriminating in our preferences, without breaking any laws. We are not businesses open to the general public. In a way, we are all private clubs, and can choose who can join our membership. Otherwise, in my opinion, we are giving up our rights as private citizens, and possibly acquiescing to the mob mentality of liberal political correctness.
@Buttermilk,
Buttermilk wrote:It is not because of their transsexuality, it is because I prefer a biological woman.
how many trans people have you dated to be able to make this determination?
@Buttermilk,
"how do I convince myself that, a transgendered man is really a woman when my ideas of a woman is incompatible to transsexuality?"
You're the one who used the word discriminatory. I was, instead, commenting re the quote above, and not about whether you would date her but what you think the person is, sexually. I think listening to your friend and actual transexuals who have gone through or are going through the changes may make you not so definite the person is a male.
I understand your having your opinion, how you feel that way. Am saying that you might someday not be quite so sure of the maleness.
@Buttermilk,
I'm not sure I really understand the question. Is the question if a person approached you and she looked like a woman and sounded like a woman and you found that person attractive and that person likewise found you attractive would you date that person is that person started life as a male? Or is the question whether you would give someone you didn't find attractive a chance? If you don't find someone attractive, and a straight male is unlikely to find another male attractive, then I don't understand the debate. On the other hand, if both of you identify her as female and you have mutual attraction why would you out of hand dismiss the relationship?
@ossobuco,
In Canada, we are now reissuing birth certificates to legally change genders.
The latest campaign is to have birth certificates issued without a gender noted.
Interesting times.
In any case, World Pride starts here tonight and our Pride gigging starts!
@engineer,
this is a perfect distillation
engineer wrote:if ... you have mutual attraction why would you out of hand dismiss the relationship?
I remembered the movie - The Crying Game.
@ossobuco,
The issue here is Buttermilk's friend passing judgment on Buttermilk because of his decision to not go on a date with the hypothetical transgendered woman.
The implication is that Buttermilk has a moral obligation to date this person. Obviously Buttermilk has the right to date anyone he chooses, and if I find someone attractive I will certainly exercise that right.
But I find the idea that I have a moral obligation to date anyone to be "liberal feminism" taken too far.
If there is no implication of moral obligation... than I have no problem with anything on this thread.
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:But I find the idea that I have a moral obligation to date anyone to be "liberal feminism" taken too far.
it has absolutely nothing to do with feminism, liberal or otherwise
liberal feminist was one of the descriptors Buttermilk used for his friend. it doesn't mean that her views are those of all feminists or of all liberal feminists.
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The issue here is Buttermilk's friend passing judgment on Buttermilk because of his decision to not go on a date with the hypothetical transgendered woman.
As stated, I didn't see the friend passing judgement as much as questioning his position.
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
maxdancona wrote:But I find the idea that I have a moral obligation to date anyone to be "liberal feminism" taken too far.
it has absolutely nothing to do with feminism, liberal or otherwise
liberal feminist was one of the descriptors Buttermilk used for his friend. it doesn't mean that her views are those of all feminists or of all liberal feminists.
Feminists have over the last few years had pressing for acceptance and rights for the sexually confused at nearly the top of their priority list...this likely has a lot to do with feminism.
@hawkeye10,
you're crazy
does that mean every man is crazy?
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
Buttermilk wrote:It is not because of their transsexuality, it is because I prefer a biological woman.
how many trans people have you dated to be able to make this determination?
I don't think that's fair.
I know there are certain types of men I would not date, because some aspect either of their appearance or personality simply does not appeal to me in any way.
I don't feel I'm discriminating against them. They're fine people. Just not for me.
I never wear yellow, not just because I don't like the color, but because of connotations it has for me. I'm not discriminating against it.
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