An interesting discussion on transgendered men/women

calling a man or woman "it" is really telling

No doubt there would be no upside to you having transgender friends.

Well, he's thinking stuff over in his head that he may not have considered before.

It's not like his idea came fully formed, like Athena springing from the mind of Zeus.

Many times my ideas/feelings develop as I go along.

I think this is a great thread. Really interesting.

It feels to me like he's trying to find ways to support his original statement rather than thinking about what people like engineer are saying to him.

Sometimes I feel like nuts, sometimes I don't. Does this make me a bad person? I don't know whether to have a cry or punch someone.

I agree. I thought the original post was a garble, but he was just talking. Hard for me to complain about that, because that is pretty much how I always post, just talking.

I get his views, just don't share them, not re who he wants to be a lover with, but re the gender question.

Ah, common sense. Is it appreciated here?

Can transgendered men, now women, give birth to a baby? One should date someone where there is no chance of having a family? Waste time in finding a mate for political correctness?

It is still one's right to date anyone one prefers. One can even choose to date vegetarians, if one is a vegetarian. It is really simple, in my opinion.

But, a transgendered man (now a woman) is an infertile woman. What if a man likes a woman that get monthly PMS; nothing like a crabby woman to turn a man on, in some men's opinion.

You might be putting too much weight on the camouflage of modern surgery. No female plumbing = not a woman.

For all we know, our poster may be infertile too. (I used to do sperm counts, assess for motility and form, etc. back in my early laboratory days).

Fertility is a side question, and obviously part of why a person would make decisions one way or another.

The question is, is a transgendered woman a woman, not whether you have to ask her out. Many will say yes, for good reasons. Obviously, some are very uncomfortable with that.

It doesn't seem to me that if you would not date a transsexual woman because she was originally a man that you can honestly say that you accept her full transition to being a woman.

I think your trying to have your cake and eat it too, or just didn't express your thinking clearly enough.

As has already been noted, your idea is discriminatory.

If you are willing to consider and treat the hypothetical transgendered woman as you would treat any other woman, but you will not date her because she is a transgender, than you are, quite clearly, discriminating based on her gender status, and not on a characteristic that would otherwise be a common reason for discrimination in deciding whether or not to date someone: physical appearance, age, personality etc. (the hypothetical laid out indicates your decision is based solely on her gender status and I'm assuming that is your intent)

Your friend is right in a literal sense, but it seems clear that she like many other liberals (whether or not feminist or LGBT) is of the belief that discrimination is automatically a negative thing. I suspect you may share her belief (at least to some extent) hence the offered defense "I accept (her) full transition to being a woman."

Again, clearly you don't or, all else being equal, you would date her.

I would hope that it goes without saying (but I can only hope) that you are not under any moral or ethical obligation to date a transgendered woman, even if she looks like Jessica Alba and has retained zero masculine characteristics. It appears your friend believes you have an intellectual or political obligation to do so (she probably thinks you also have a moral and ethical obligation as well but that's a given). You don't

What you seem to be asking is, "Is it wrong to deny that a transgendered woman is actually a woman; to believe that despite whatever operations and hormone treatments she has undergone or how she views herself, she is still biologically a man?"

I don't think so, and even if it were I don't see how you could possibly change such a fundamental perception. It's not a series of consciousness raising sessions is going to bridge that divide.

Personally I think the only "correct" behavior in this case is to treat the woman as you would treat any other woman for whom you felt no sexual attraction, and this would include your reaction to any romantic or sexual overtures. Probably safe to say that if an unattractive woman flirted with you or asked you out you wouldn't say something like "Are you kidding you ugly cow?" so you shouldn't respond to the transgendered woman with "Are you kidding? You're a goddamned man!"

The transgendered can reasonably only expect to be treated as the sex they believe themselves to be and in the same civil manner we all expect. They shouldn't expect people to change their hard-wiring.

Wow. That's a distinct LACK of faith on the believers part.

(But true. I believe that's why some fundy's plug their ears and go LALALALA whenever evolution is brought up. They're afraid they may learn something. )

I'm a liberal as you know, since you put me in that place many times, all of us behaving badly. Actually, liberal is on the tame side as a descriptive, I don't even like progressive. Bring on the tambourines.


I think I disagree with you, that if you admit you understand a transgender woman as a woman you need to be willing to date her - is that what you meant?

Nobody has to date anybody, that's a scarlet herring.

No, no, no, I don't think that if you declare you fully accept that a transgendered woman is fully a woman (or as you've written, "understand" her) that you need to be willing to date her. No, I didn't mean that.

What I meant was that if you won't date a transgendered woman solely because she is transgendered, then you haven't fully accepted her as fully a woman.

I don't think anyone is required to date a transgendered woman for any reason any more than I think anyone is required to date anybody.

I also don't think anyone is required to fully accept that a transgendered woman is fully a woman. Decency and empathy should lead you to treating the transgendered as you would someone born into the gender they have adopted; to respect their choice and provide common courtesy, but I see no reason why anyone should feel that they themselves or anyone else is somehow a bigot or intolerant if they can't emotionally or intellectually accept that a man who transforms himself through surgery and drug therapy into the physical semblance of a woman, has actually become a woman. If someone can, that's fine too, but's not a simple thing to reconcile, and no one should feel guilty or be criticized if they can't.

Lest anyone feel the need to explain, I understand that many if not most of these people believe they are a member of the gender to which they convert and have done so all of their lives. I also understand that for a group of people, gender identification is not a simple matter. I don't think they are all kooks expressing some bizarre mental health problem. Their lives must be very rough and if they feel there is a need to undergo the demanding process of sex change, I'm glad medical science can accommodate them. I have not met any, that I know of, but somehow I suspect that they are less demanding about how people think of them than many of those who feel the need to speak for them.

PS: Some of my best friends are liberals...I wasn't taking (much of) a shot at liberals with my comment about discrimination, but let's face it, there are a lot of people that fail to see that discrimination can be a virtue as well as a vice, and most of them would self-describe as liberal. No proof held so none will be provided if demanded, just my observation.

just replying to the first part -

No, no, no, I don't think that if you declare you fully accept that a transgendered woman is fully a woman (or as you've written, "understand" her) that you need to be willing to date her. No, I didn't mean that.

What I meant was that if you won't date a transgendered woman solely because she is transgendered, then you haven't fully accepted her as fully a woman.

I don't think anyone is required to date a transgendered woman for any reason any more than I think anyone is required to date anybody.

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I am thinking we obviously agree, how much more clear could I be, and it is Buttermilk that conflates these issues.

I understand, finn.

Ohhh, I don't know...

"calling a man or woman "it" is really telling

No doubt there would be no upside to you having transgender friends."


You're really ultra-sensitive aren't you. By no means was "it" intention on my part to refer to another human being as "it." Rather it was a grammatical err on my part. The "telling" aspect is your overt sensitivity and besides you don't even know me so please save your judgment.

On the first date.

Not really.