19
   

VA Scandal

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Fri 30 May, 2014 01:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,
"Shinseki knew about these problems several years ago"
Do we know for certain he knew that long ago? Not arguing, but, if he did, it is long past time he exited.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Fri 30 May, 2014 02:10 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Because congress has been taking money from VA to prosecute 2 wars.
Baldimo
 
  1  
Fri 30 May, 2014 02:21 pm
@RABEL222,
False. The VA has had a rolling surplus for the last 5 years. They are not short on money, they are short on actual help to the vets. Shinseki actually said today that it wasn't an isolated case and that it was a systemic problem. Money isn't the issue.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 30 May, 2014 03:07 pm
@edgarblythe,
From the LA Times.
Quote:
But a growing group of lawmakers from both sides of the political aisle is audibly dissatisfied with what it characterizes as long-running systemic problems throughout the veterans' healthcare system. One Democratic senator called for the FBI to launch a criminal investigation.

Several senators provided detailed stories from their home states about long wait times, dating back several years.

Sen. Johnny Isakson (R-Ga.) cited an eight-page memo from VA officials in August 2010 detailing the ways workers were "gaming" the books to disguise excessive wait times, including keeping a second set of logs.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  2  
Fri 30 May, 2014 05:25 pm
Talk to anyone who came back from Viet Nam and relied on the VA. Care was spotty, some excellent and some dismal. I can't remember exactly how early we learned about the dismal conditions at Walter Reed when the wounded started to pile up from Afghanistan and ridiculous venture into Iraq. That really wasn't so long ago, surely I'm not the only one who paid attention after 9/11.

That being said, when my father had a stroke in 1999, the VA in Baltimore cared for him the entire six weeks he lived. A private hospital would have sent him to a nursing home. However, when he arrived at the VA, it took the ER doc in charge close to 5 hours before it even dawned on him it could have been a stroke. We had several discussions early on, but it wasn't until a group of docs were checking him out, I asked again, "don't you think it's a stroke?" Then lead doc said "why would you ask if it was a stroke?" I answered, his face is droopy on the right side and his speech is slurred. Then doc said, you mean he doesn't normally talk like that???? The rest was a little blurred because it never occurred to me a doctor could miss the obvious signs of stoke. After that they finally did an MRI. Once he got out of the ER section, his care increased considerably.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Fri 30 May, 2014 11:14 pm
By my calculation the VA gets $6700 per person covered, and a lot of these people only get part of their care through the VA. Why shouldn't that be enough? Does anyone have any evidence that this should not be enough to get the job done? Maybe they just need to be more efficient with their systems, use money more wisely.

I am open to the argument that they need more money, but after decades of throwing ever great amounts of money (inflation adjusted) at our schools to no effect I am not going to buy the argument that we are too cheap without some evidence.

EDIT: the claim is that the biggest problem the VA has is not enough docs. Well America does not have enough docs in a lot of types of care and in particular in general care, and ObamaCare just makes the problem worse by making the working conditions worse for doctors and the pay worse for a lot of doctors...... throwing money at the VA is not going to do much to solve that problem. Are we going to pay VA docs so much or make their work rewarding that docs will stay in the profession? Not bloody likely, from the sounds of it VA docs are highly dissatisfied employees right now, over worked with no reinforcements on the way, they have very far to go to be the ones keep doctors in the profession.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Fri 30 May, 2014 11:24 pm
@hawkeye10,
Another metric...the VA collects $750 per office visit.

That is not enough?

Prove it.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Fri 30 May, 2014 11:34 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Most experts agree that soaring demand for veterans’ care has outpaced the availability of doctors in many locations, and that high turnover is a major problem. In the last three years, primary care appointments have leapt 50 percent while the department’s staff of primary care doctors has grown by only 9 percent, according to department statistics.
Those primary care doctors are supposed to be responsible for about 1,200 patients each, but many now treat upward of 2,000, said J. David Cox, national president of the American Federation of Government Employees, which represents nurses and other support staff.
He said the department spent too much hiring midlevel administrators and not enough on doctors and nurses. That complaint is shared by some lawmakers and veterans groups.
Supporters of the department note that hospitals everywhere are struggling to find enough primary care doctors. But some experts say the Department of Veterans Affairs has additional hurdles, including lower pay scales.
VA primary care doctors and internists generally earn from about $98,000 to $195,000. Private-sector primary care physicians’ total median compensation was $221,000 in 2012, according to the Medical Group Management Association, a trade group


http://www.dallasnews.com/news/local-news/20140529-va-plagued-by-shortage-of-primary-caregivers.ece

How about we do what the all of corporate America has done, get rid of 20-40% of management and take that money and spend it doctors and nurses?

My wife who worked at VA Seattle agrees, but she also said that she is aware of some docs who see only two patients a day, and do no operations so they dont have a good excuse.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Sat 31 May, 2014 12:03 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
NAVAPD recently(2011) repeated the Patient Care survey of its membership first done in 2008. The results reveal that physicians’ believe the quality of care provided in VA facilities has declined in the past 3 years. Positive responses suffered an overall decline while overall negative responses rose. Positive responses dropped 34%. Negative responses increased by 31%.


survey results at link

http://www.navapd.org/resources/surveys/2011-navapd-survey/

This is an area of government that Obama from the very start has claimed to care a lot about, so when doctors and others at the VA in 2011 broadly said that care was getting worse did Obama do anything?

Of course not.

in may 2014 when what remain of the journalism corps reported that the VA has been cooking the books for years, when it is reported that top management at VA got told in 2011 that VA hospitals were cooking the books, Obama's response is NATCH:

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Sat 31 May, 2014 12:52 am
@hawkeye10,
Obama (oct 22 2009) telling america that under his watch america is going to uphold its promise of healthcare to veterans, because our commitment to our veterans is a sacred trust.



But over the next years as the system withers under a greatly increased workload added by Obama, and shoddy management, Obama Does. Nothing.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  2  
Sat 31 May, 2014 07:45 am
Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shinseki resigned on Friday following revelations of excessive wait times for medical appointments at the Veterans Health Administration (VHA), where some veterans may have died waiting for health services on secret lists that clinics maintained to hide long delays. But Shinseki’s decision to step aside, which comes after more than 100 lawmakers called for his ouster, does not resolve the systematic problems plaguing the agency.

According to VA inspector general reports, access issues have plagued the VA for years and VA staff were aware that some were falsifying records in order to cover up delays of treatment since at least the George W. Bush administration.

“What’s needed is to immediately identify and fix what’s broken, to hold people accountable to the maximum extent of the law, and to do whatever is necessary to help restore the full faith and confidence of veterans in their VA,” Joe Davis, Public Affairs Director for Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW), said. Here are four steps toward that goal:


. Temporarily extend care outside of the VA.

The Department of Veterans Affairs recently announced that it will allow veterans to use private medical services to meet growing demands for healthcare in areas where the department’s capacity to expand is limited.

Several veterans advocates have also called on Obama to use his executive powers to temporarily expand the Patient-Centered Community Care (PCCC) initiative, which allows VA medical centers to purchase non-VA medical care for veterans through contracted medical providers when VA care is not readily available.

2. Reform the way bonuses are awarded.

Performance reviews that are used to determine raises, bonuses and promotions have created “perverse incentives for manipulating wait-time data,” lawmakers and experts tell the New York Times. Whistleblowers have also revealed that supervisors at veterans hospitals pressured staff to manipulate patient-access numbers to “look good for their supervisors.”

To that end, Shinseki announced on Friday that he has “directed that no VHA [Veterans Health Administration] senior executive will receive any type of performance award for 2014, this year” and that “patient wait times be deleted from VHA employees’ evaluation reports as a measure of their success.”

3. Attract more health care providers.

The Department of Veterans Affairs is currently trying to “fill 400 vacancies to add to its roster of primary care doctors, which last year numbered 5,100.” In the past three years, primary care appointments increased by 50 percent, while the number of primary care doctors has grown by just 9 percent.

The provider shortage reflects larger shortages in the health care system, but staffing the VA may be particularly challenging, since doctors can often receive higher pay in the private health care system. Former Congressman and veterans advocate Patrick Murphy says the government must cast working at the VA as a way for Americans to serve their country and they in turn would receive forgiveness of their student loans.

4. Expand the use of electronic health records.

The agency did not fully implement digital processing of claims nationwide until 2013 and still does not have an efficient system for processing and receiving records from the Pentagon to “determine if an injury is related to a veteran’s time in the military.”

The VA had planned to “build a joint platform for records sharing,” but the project was dropped after multiple cost overruns, the National Journal reports.

source
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 31 May, 2014 09:17 am
@revelette2,
They could add one more process to their requirement; have consumers provide a report back to the VA by questionaire on wait times when they go to the hospital for care, and a follow-up report when they've completed their care. Kaiser does this, and they're rated Number 1 in California.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Sat 31 May, 2014 10:28 am
@hawkeye10,
It was very disappointing to hear the "distraction" BS trotted out. Not disappointed in Obama using it; that was expected but I keep hearing what a man of honor Shinseki is.

The use of "distraction" implies that the only reason he resigned was that political opponents were filling the airwaves with calls for his scalp. It ignores the fact that Democrats were demanding he resign, but so what, it was never intended to be accurate.

If the only reason he needed to go was because politicians in both parties were trying to score points by demanding his head, the president shouldn't have accepted his resignation. If he truly had no responsibility for the travesty and was capable of fixing the mess, he should have stayed on.

But, even when there is some measure of accountability in DC, there is an effort to dodge actual responsibility. I though Shinseki was better than this.

He was responsible for the mess and not simply because he was the head of the agency. It was not an impossible task for the Secretary to prevent this from happening or to discover it and address it. "I trusted people too much." is another sorry excuse that attempts to deflect responsibility. There is also no reason to believe he was capable of fixing the problems now that they have been fully revealed to all.

He needed to go, but not because he was a "distraction."

Politicians, of both parties, always qualify and nullify their apologies and acceptances of responsibility. It's probably a feature of their basic nature, but it's also probably an attempt to mitigate political damage; to give them some defense when their opponents use their admissions and apologies against them. I could be wrong, but I think Americans would react very favorably to any politician who genuinely and without qualification clearly apologized or took responsibility. And if they didn't, at least the politician could take some comfort in knowing he or she did the right thing.

Sadly, I don't think too many politicians have trouble sleeping at night because of their moral shortcomings.


Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sat 31 May, 2014 10:38 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

It was very disappointing to hear the "distraction" BS trotted out. Not disappointed in Obama using it; that was expected but I keep hearing what a man of honor Shinseki is.

The use of "distraction" implies that the only reason he resigned was that political opponents were filling the airwaves with calls for his scalp. It ignores the fact that Democrats were demanding he resign, but so what, it was never intended to be accurate.

If the only reason he needed to go was because politicians in both parties were trying to score points by demanding his head, the president shouldn't have accepted his resignation. If he truly had no responsibility for the travesty and was capable of fixing the mess, he should have stayed on.

But, even when there is some measure of accountability in DC, there is an effort to dodge actual responsibility. I though Shinseki was better than this.

He was responsible for the mess and not simply because he was the head of the agency. It was not an impossible task for the Secretary to prevent this from happening or to discover it and address it. "I trusted people too much." is another sorry excuse that attempts to deflect responsibility. There is also no reason to believe he was capable of fixing the problems now that they have been fully revealed to all.

He needed to go, but not because he was a "distraction."

Politicians, of both parties, always qualify and nullify their apologies and acceptances of responsibility. It's probably a feature of their basic nature, but it's also probably an attempt to mitigate political damage; to give them some defense when their opponents use their admissions and apologies against them. I could be wrong, but I think Americans would react very favorably to any politician who genuinely and without qualification clearly apologized or took responsibility. And if they didn't, at least the politician could take some comfort in knowing he or she did the right thing.

Sadly, I don't think too many politicians have trouble sleeping at night because of their moral shortcomings.





Frankly, I don't think there are too many Americans of any stripe who have trouble sleeping at night because of their moral shortcomings. I also don't think too many Germans, English, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese, Finns, Greeks, Ethiopians, Guatemalans, Argentinians, or Eskimos have trouble sleeping at night because of their moral shortcomings.

Some do...but my bet is they are a tiny minority of people.

Humans seem to have an infinite ability to rationalize anything that might be considered "moral shortcomings" in themselves.

But...for the holier-than-thou crowd so anxious to crucify politicians for doing what humans do...go for it.

There is some amusement in watching it go on.
Wink
engineer
 
  4  
Sat 31 May, 2014 10:54 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

If he truly had no responsibility for the travesty and was capable of fixing the mess, he should have stayed on.

...

He was responsible for the mess and not simply because he was the head of the agency. It was not an impossible task for the Secretary to prevent this from happening or to discover it and address it.

I agree with all of that. Obama is responsible. He assigned Shinseki to handle it and that seemed like a good choice given his background, but Shinseki dropped the ball and Shinseki is likewise responsible. Both of them should completely own that. It's not like the VA was known for doing right by veterans in the first place. There have been VA issues since forever and a well entrenched bureaucracy so Shinseki being "trustful" was not very wise. Likewise, the issue has been growing for a year and Obama should have diverted some attention this way earlier. It didn't just happen.

I give Shinseki credit for forcing the VA to step up on Agent Orange illnesses, unexplained Gulf War illness and combat trauma/PTSD. They had been ignoring veterans medical complaints for years and Shinseki put a stop to it, but he clearly allowed the same administrators who were watching the bottom line more than the vets a lot of leeway and this is what you get.

There is a large part of me that would allow Shinseki more time to fix it, but he is responsible, he failed in his job and in his mission to veterans and it's time to bring someone else in.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Sat 31 May, 2014 11:51 am
@engineer,
<agree>
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Sat 31 May, 2014 11:58 am
@Frank Apisa,
Some of us are just not as understanding and forgiving as you are frank, but that's not something that keeps me awake at night.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Sat 31 May, 2014 02:31 pm
@engineer,
There is some truth to what you say. The VA is a huge department of the US government. Not many know how to manage such an huge,unwieldy, organization. Changing policy takes months, not days as they can in many corporations. Not many have the skills to manage such a big organization with a budget over $157 billion in this or any other country. As the leader, you have to have some trust in your subordinates; it's impossible to micromanage so many facilities and personnel.

Unfortunately for Shinseki, he had other ways to get to the bottom of this waiting problem much sooner, and he didn't solve the problem. Those administrators at the Arizona VA hospital should have been fired long ago.

It's easy to criticize when you're not in charge of such a huge department or have any management experience. Most of those who continue to criticize only parrot what they hear and not from personal experience or knowledge in management.

hawkeye10
 
  2  
Sat 31 May, 2014 02:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
David gergen says that almost no one has the skills to run Va. Robert Gates would be perfect but there is no way he will agree to do it. Gergen gives up a handful of lessers who would do a pretty good job.
RABEL222
 
  3  
Sat 31 May, 2014 02:44 pm
@hawkeye10,
My wife has 1 med that costs $2500 a month. Thats $30,000 a year for 1 med. She takes 12 meds and sees 4 doctors. I wont go into particulars but judging by my wife they would have to stop supplying medical care after 3 months on just 1 med. I spend over $13,000 a year on medical care and insurance so your $6,700 is bs.
 

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