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The Death Penalty - Should it be abolished?

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 07:50 am
Two or three decades ago a movie came out "Escape from New York". The premise was a modernistic USA in which Manhattan Island, complete with all its structures, had been converted into a maximum security prison.

Those convicted of capital crimes had a choice: a quick, painless death by injection or they could go to the Island with no possibility of ever leaving it.

Food, medicine, clothing drops were made, but there were no jail cells, no guards, no rules other than those the prisoners themselves made. The perimeter was constantly guarded by helicopter and patrol boat and anyone attempting to leave the Island was immediately shot to death.

Apart from the sociological interest of how a society like that might develop, would any here favor that as a solution?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 07:59 am
No, I wouldn't. Great idea for a reality TV show though..."Devil's Island"...we just need to allow TV to degrade just a little further.

Punishment, where applied out of some notion of 'he deserves it', seems rather medieval and barbaric to me. There's a clear and justifiable function of prisons in protecting society. And there's an equally clear and justifiable function in prisons, or in punishment, where deterence is statistically measureable. Otherwise, it's just vengeance.
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:02 am
It sounds like a waste of perfectly good food, medicine, and clothing. BTW Kurt Russell is great.

"Removal from society" should mean revocation of breathing rights. Sticking sick and twisted killers in prison lets them influence other inmates to become sick and twisted too. The influenced ones go free when their sentences are done, and the cycle begins again.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:09 am
I love the Old Testament passage where god is watching the smoke rising from all those folks burning down in hell, and God smiles.
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bosworth1485
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:11 am
Tarantulas- I agree. Prison all too often is a minor league system where criminals learn to ply their trade better. The worst abusers in society- rapist, pedophiles and vicious murderers should be kept in solitary for life. My Uncle was a Captain at Rikers Island in NYC for 25 years. There is not a whole lot of rehabilation going on there.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:14 am
Quote:
There is not a whole lot of rehabilation going on there.


Bosworth...why not?
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:16 am
MyOwnUsername wrote:
by the way, Devil's advocate or Advocatus Diaboli is title of high official of Catholic Church (who has duty to find all possible reasons for someone not to be bonificated) so I guess you would rather skip that title Smile))


Sheesh, I think you're right there! Nope, I don't want that job. Laughing I think I'll just leave it at: I do think there are certain crimes that warrant the death penalty, such as serial killers, serial rapists and rapists/killers of children. So...abolish it, no, fine tune it, perhaps yes.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:16 am
I still reject the idea of 'vengeance' when it comes to sentencing those convicted of capital crimes or any crimes.

If the law is explicit in the penalty for breaking it, whether fine, making restitution, jail/prison time, or death, the law breaker himself/herself chooses the outcome. If there is no consequence for breaking the law, there is no incentive for the criminally inclined not to break it.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:23 am
Sure, where deterence is effectual, that's got to be part of the equation.

But if you are suggesting that once a punishment is established, then all moral questions become moot, that's a bit easy.

Not too long past, in the streets of London, one could sit down on a high fence and watch folks being pulled apart by four horses. In Taliban controlled states, theft was lawfully punished by whacking off the thiefs hands.

So, whether or not a state sets out a penalty (puts it into the law...eg three strikes, to take a modern example) doesn't entail that all the moral thinking has been done.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:24 am
I don't want to cause offense or trauma to anyone here with real-life cases, but I do wonder sometimes if the argument that death is too easy isn't actually more vengeful than just killing these sickos? Personally, I would rather have serious closure, maybe because I don't trust the prison system, or lawyers.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:26 am
blatham wrote:
Sure, where deterence is effectual, that's got to be part of the equation.

But if you are suggesting that once a punishment is established, then all moral questions become moot, that's a bit easy.

Not too long past, in the streets of London, one could sit down on a high fence and watch folks being pulled apart by four horses. In Taliban controlled states, theft was lawfully punished by whacking off the thiefs hands.

So, whether or not a state sets out a penalty (puts it into the law...eg three strikes, to take a modern example) doesn't entail that all the moral thinking has been done.


Blatham, I seriously believe that if we went back to public executions, it would be the highest revenue grab in the history of pay-per-view. In an imperfect system, I think keeping it off the tube, and out of the public square, is still better than no death penalty at all.
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JoanneDorel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:28 am
My position as a member of the Society of Friends (Quakers) is that humans are not capable of making decisions about life and death. And we, the Quakers, instituted the institution of penitentiary after all. Punishment is not the issue it is killing another human that is the issue for me.

I think putting someone convicted by jury and sentenced according to law in a room with only the bible to read is a pretty harsh punishment.


The World's First Penitentiary
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:29 am
cav

I understand, I think. Rehabilitation isn't quite so reliable as repair of a clutch. It seems as if (and the lady who prosecuted OJ...Marsha something), when asked why she wanted the death penalty for him when there wasn't a statistical correlation between the death penalty and crime reduction, answered "Well, he'd never do it again."

But that statistic is important.
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JoanneDorel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:34 am
Quote:
Relieved of the burdens of governing Pennsylvania, Philadelphia's Friends redoubled their efforts in building schools and hospitals. Prison "reform" held particular attraction, as they had learned more about prisons than they had ever wanted to know. Over fifteen thousand had been imprisoned in Quakerism's early days in England, and George Fox had spent more than six years in prison.
Working with Benjamin Franklin, with whom they had joined forces to build America's first general hospital in 1756, the Quakers conceived of a totally new type of prison, meant to be an improvement from the holding pens that were typical of the eighteenth century. The first endeavor, which opened in 1790, was called a "penitentiary " house. It featured sixteen cells for solitary confinement. The idea was that, in silence, the prisoners' Inner Light would lead them to a state of penitence.
Out of this humble beginning came a grand experiment, the massive 450-cell Eastern State Penitentiary, the origin of the U.S. penitentiary system and the subsequent model for overseas systems (for the short time it was in vogue). Built from 1821 to 1836, in a hub-and-spokes design, it was the largest and most expensive building of its time, costing the then-exorbitant amount of $789,000.
To maintain the standard of absolute solitude for every prisoner, criminals lived?-paradoxically?-with physical luxuries and social stringencies. Each cell was private and had heat, running water, a flush toilet, a skylight, and its own exercise yard. Meals were delivered to each cell. (The very same year, the White House had a coal-burning stove and no running water.) There was nothing but shoemaking or weaving to fill the prisoners' days: visitors, books or letters, and contact with other prisoners were forbidden. The system was so strict, the institution's history records, that "to prevent distraction, knowledge of the building, and even mild interaction with guards, inmates were hooded whenever they were outside their cells."
It was not long before this "reform" generated calls for its own reform. In his American Notes, Charles Dickens, horrified upon his visit to the world's first penitentiary in 1842, wrote: "Those who designed this system of Prison Discipline ... do not know what it is that they are doing. ... I hold this slow and daily tampering with the mysteries of the brain to be immeasurably worse than any torture of the body."
Design modifications were made to the building starting in 1870, and the prison's exclusive use of solitary confinement (which came to be known as the Pennsylvania system) was abandoned in 1913. The building continued to be used as a prison, but with inmates sharing cells, eating in a dining hall, and exercising together. In need of expensive repairs, it was closed in 1971. It has been open to tourists since 1994.
--L.S
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:35 am
blatham, I suppose that it sadly comes down to the same old argument of crime reduction versus criminal reduction, each one circular. The issue of rehabilitation is still nebulous in terms of proof regarding it's effectiveness. There is evidence that shows certain criminals just cannot be rehabilitated. Would death be better? That might be a question left to the ages. So far, neither approach seems to work effectively.

Joanne, potent thoughts as always.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:39 am
Nice historical piece Joanne.

cav...yup, I know. Tip of the hat to whatever fates have graced me with only minimal psychopathy.
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suzy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:41 am
Hi Joanne
My dad used to work for the Quakers, the American Friends Service Committee, on prison reform and prisoner's rights. Small world!
The group did so much for him. Those were the best years of his life.
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JoanneDorel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:43 am
Suzy I am very involved with the AFSC. Yes indeed a small world.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:44 am
They are building many new cyclepathys right here in our city, and it's annoying the drivers. I think this could turn into road rage, and vehicular homicide. I'm guessing there would be no death penalty for the SUV murderer, not just because there is no death penalty here, but because they could cop out on a 'mental anguish' defence as well.
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bosworth1485
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 08:47 am
Blatham, there is not a lot of rehab. because most do not want to be rehabbed. Most do not belive that they did anything wrong other than the fact that they got caught. It is a generalization but on that is for the most part true. Rapists and especially pedophiles cannot be rehabbed. They are sick and should be locked away. The sentences that most rapists get is a sick joke.
In reference to drug crimes, I would not include them. I find most of them to be a victim of socio-economic circumstances.
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