Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 10:00 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Olivier5 wrote:

A more important question would be: is America becoming some sort of 'soft fascist' state, where the people is controlled while being given the illusion of freedom and democracy. There are indications that it is turning a corner: Gitmo, NSA, the rising inequalities...


So....ask the question...and some people may give an opinion.

My comment would be that there is enough anger directed at the US so that almost any question posed can get plenty of opinion that casts it in a negative light.

I probably would offer that our nation has EARNED some of that put-down...but as I've said several times, all very powerful nations have abused their power. (I'm certainly willing to entertain a list of very powerful nations that have not!)

So there will be many who suggest America IS becoming a fascist state.

I don't think so. I think Americans are generally free to criticize their government and the individuals at its head...and quite honestly, it is almost a full time hobby for a significant portion of the people.

But if you...or anyone else thinks otherwise...it is free enough for you to voice that complain (you as a visitor) and do so with impunity.


The problem may be that it is difficult to go against fashion. In some circles it is fashionable to portray the U.S. in a negative way.



Yes, indeed, Wandel.

And not just from abroad either.

There are plenty of Americans who spend huge chunks of their time bad-mouthing their own country...using their freedom of speech to contend that we Americans no longer have freedom of speech!

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 10:04 am
@Foofie,
I've wasted too much time trying to explain things to you. You don't get it, and you won't get it.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 12:25 pm
@Frank Apisa,
The fact that one can still vent about the system, would be part of the "fake freedom" thing. You can vent but you can't really change things.

What do you care about what other people are saying about the US? Do you think the French lose sleep over what the Daily Mirror or Faux News or the New York Post say about them??? Or Izzy's silly videos, for that matter...

Such misplaced concerns about your image abroad is -- I suspect -- why you and many other Americans are so pissed off about Snowden: your national pride is wounded. "He embarrassed us in front of the whole world".

Instead of licking your wounded national pride, you should ask yourself what you want your own nation to become: a tightly controlled 'sheep nation', or a free one? And what does it take to remain free, in nowadays world?

As of NOW, the NSA can chose who any of your elected official will be. All they got to do is weigh in the election by digging dirt on the candidate(s) they dislike the most. You don't need to bother voting anymore. Is that the country you want to live in?
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 01:52 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

The fact that one can still vent about the system, would be part of the "fake freedom" thing. You can vent but you can't really change things.


You are absolutely correct, Olivier. And I am sure if you had lived in Iraq when Saddam Hussein was in power...you would have strongly voiced your disapproval of the man even though you would not have been able to really change things.

Right?

Quote:
What do you care about what other people are saying about the US?


I don't, particularly. But I have an opinion...and do you have a problem with me expressing it?

Quote:
Do you think the French lose sleep over what the Daily Mirror or Faux News or the New York Post say about them??? Or Izzy's silly videos, for that matter...


Wouldn't you be able to answer that question better than I.? Why would you ask me that?

Quote:
Such misplaced concerns about your image abroad is -- I suspect -- why you and many other Americans are so pissed off about Snowden: your national pride is wounded. "He embarrassed us in front of the whole world".


One...I have no "misplaced concerns" about America's image abroad. People think what they will about us...some more favorable than others.

But I have an opinion...and do you have a problem with me expressing it?

Quote:
Instead of licking your wounded national pride, you should ask yourself what you want your own nation to become: a tightly controlled 'sheep nation', or a free one? And what does it take to remain free, in nowadays world?


How about you allow me to decide what I want to do...and you get to decide what you want to do?

Doesn't that make more sense than this nonsense you are sputtering?

Quote:
As of NOW, the NSA can chose who any of your elected official will be.


Really. Did the tooth fairy tell you that?

Quote:
All they got to do is weigh in the election by digging dirt on the candidate(s) they dislike the most. You don't need to bother voting anymore. Is that the country you want to live in?


I am quite satisfied with where I live, Olivier. I hope you are also. I hear it is a lovely country, France. Wink
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 01:58 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Foofie wrote:
Empty rhetoric, in my opinion. Similar to Germany admitting that the Holocaust (aka, The Final Solution) was wrong to do. I do not believe many German nationals today have any "remorse," nor "shame" for that atrocity. Why?


Because, with the exception of some very old men and women, they didn't do anything. Why should someone feel shame for something one of their ancestors may or may not have done? You can remember the past and respect the victims without going round in sackcloth and ashes all the time. Punishing the offspring down to the 7th generation is so backwards. What's important is to focus on the present. Germany is a very peaceful nation, and does not pose the slightest threat to any other nation's sovereignty, unlike some of those who like to wag fingers and pontificate.


You are correct, in my opinion, up to a point. We don't punish later generations, even though that was the lesson to be learned by good Catholics for the "rejection of Christ" by guess who.

Anyway, in my opinion, your saying that Britain has come to terms with their colonial past is backwards, even though that is the common parlance promulgated. Meaning, it is not for the perpetrator to come to terms with anything, except one's conscience, and that might be of little "ethical" value if the "victim" has not come to terms with any forgiveness.

I believe there are families, often in Israel, or the U.S., that lost grandparents, etc. in the Holocaust. Believe me, many in those families have not forgiven Germany for the Holocaust, since those newreels of naked women being herded into the gas chambers is just too disgusting to forgive the country that accepted that paradigm for eliminating a "problem."

And, you can be assured that there are Irish-Americans that have no love for the British, since family members recounted what transpired for centuries at the hands of the British. They needed no documentation, since their oral tradition came in handy.

So, the victims of colonial excesses do not care if Britain "came to terms" with their past. That might only mean that the verbosity of the British might be able to convince themselves that all's well that ends well.

And, similarly, many Jews just want to avoid anything German. Meaning many Jews take a European vacation that could include Britain, Scandanavia, Holland, France, Spain, but not Germany. They just wouldn't even feel comfortable hearing the language being spoken. The message being, they had a chance to be civilized, and they missed that chance in the quest to rectify the Versailles Treaty, in the way of metaphor.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 02:05 pm
@Foofie,
I certainly can understand those feelings.

Be assured, Foofie, if someone had given me the chance to choose my parents and their country, I would have chosen a different a different country and (perhaps) different parents..
Unfortunately, I must have missed that situation when such happened.Or no-one told me about it. Or I just can't remember it.
Or I'm only pretending all of above.
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 02:09 pm
@Frank Apisa,
How about you cut the attitude and try to think a little harder about what is being said in a post, before you waste your time answering something that isn't actually being said?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 02:12 pm
So very many countries have done monstrous things to other countries...but that seem primarily to be an extension of humans doing monstrous things to other humans.

We tend to forget that we are just recently down out of the trees as a species.

I just got a report of my DNA from a National Geographic DNA survey called The Genome Project.

Amazing when I think that less than 150,000 years ago, I had ancestors that make me cousins (many times removed) from Bantu and Zulu's. The apparent path of both my matriarchal and patriarchal DNA indicates movement from Africa up into the Middle East and then to Southern Europe. I have 1.9% Neanderthal DNA...which is slightly below average for European whites.

Be are truly all brothers...

...and you know how brothers get along!
Foofie
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 02:14 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:
When you say "we all...deserve a hell of a lot better..." you are doing the Catholic thing again (aka, loving your enemies), in my opinion. The world is all not Catholic.
Sanctum sanctorum cacas, to say it Catholic. I'dthought, it had been an old Jewish principle, from the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs.


You are barking up the wrong tree. My Jewishness began and ended with my circumcision. And, as a non-American, you might not be aware that the large urban centers had/have a thriving Parochial school system, since many Catholic parents originally thought that Public School was a Protestant effort to make their children Protestant. Well, having gone to Public School, I do believe it teaches history with little cognitive dissonance - the U.S. was good and our enemies were always not as good. I can see that that might be a Protestant way of looking at one's country, since patriotism must be felt in one's heart, as opposed to the Catholic emphasis on ritual.

Religion plays no part in my life, other than knowing that the United States of America was/is a great Protestant nation. That is why, in my opinion, Jewish Americans can live here and feel comfortable. Tell me a Catholic country in Europe where Jews feel comfortable enough to voice any dissonant opinions. The spectre of the Inquisition still might remain in the Jewish collective unconscious?
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 02:17 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

Ok, you've distilled yourself.


Cute.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 02:29 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

I certainly can understand those feelings.

Be assured, Foofie, if someone had given me the chance to choose my parents and their country, I would have chosen a different a different country and (perhaps) different parents..
Unfortunately, I must have missed that situation when such happened.Or no-one told me about it. Or I just can't remember it.
Or I'm only pretending all of above.


I for one do not want you to be uncomfortable for the past. But, I believe Germany should be realistic and accept the fact that Jews, Poles, Russians and anyone that lost family members in the European/North Africa WWII theaters might not be comfortable with things German for quite awhile. Notice that Austria goes its own merry way, so to speak, with no concerns for their having been avid members of the Anschluss. The problem might be that Germany is impatient? How many Americans today look to Sweden as a warlike country. They are just so peaceful; however, it was the Swedes in the 17th century, I thought, that blonded much of Europe.
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 02:37 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:


...I have 1.9% Neanderthal DNA...which is slightly below average for European whites...



I am curious if when the DNA report specifies "average," what would the "high" be? Five percent? I wonder if there is a correlation between aesthetic looks (i.e, handsome/beautiful) and percent of Neanderthal DNA? That could make for some new ad-hominems ("ugly as Neanderthal").
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 02:42 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:


...I have 1.9% Neanderthal DNA...which is slightly below average for European whites...



I am curious if when the DNA report specifies "average," what would the "high" be? Five percent? I wonder if there is a correlation between aesthetic looks (i.e, handsome/beautiful) and percent of Neanderthal DNA? That could make for some new ad-hominems ("ugly as Neanderthal").


I don't know...but the report mentions that the normal or average finding for European whites is 2%...which is really very interesting considering that not too many years ago, scientists were saying that Homo Sapiens and Neanderthal probably never cross bred.

I intend to do a bit more reading on the issue...but my first-blush guess would be that there would be no correlation between what we now consider physical beauty and the amount of Neanderthal DNA people have. From what I have read in the past...Neaderthals were not the brutes that were portrayed just a few years back...and apparently did not look appreciably different from some Homo Sapiens of the age where they (Neanderthals) existed concurrently.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 02:49 pm
@Foofie,
You are correct.
The Austrians have little problems with the Austrian Hitler and their Nazi past (Actually, the Austrian Nazi party has been older than the German one).

Not only the Swedes burned parts of Europe in the ground - I think, any nation (kingdom, dukedom, earldom, free city ...)did it at some time.

Actually, I don't feel uncomfortable with the German past - I just can't understand how it could have happened. And that makes me more than uncomfortable.
(I suppose, I can guess how it happened - and therefore I try to do all what I can that similar doesn't happen again.)
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 02:56 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

You are correct.
The Austrians have little problems with the Austrian Hitler and their Nazi past (Actually, the Austrian Nazi party has been older than the German one).

Not only the Swedes burned parts of Europe in the ground - I think, any nation (kingdom, dukedom, earldom, free city ...)did it at some time.

Actually, I don't feel uncomfortable with the German past - I just can't understand how it could have happened. And that makes me more than uncomfortable.
(I suppose, I can guess how it happened - and therefore I try to do all what I can that similar doesn't happen again.)



Here is an article you might find interesting. You may have read about it previously, but this one fills in lots of information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 03:00 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Humans living today carry between 1 and 4 percent of Neanderthal genes that carry the code for proteins in our bodies.
The complete genomes of the Neanderthals and modern humans, whose lineages separated from some unknown common ancestor at least 400,000 years ago, are 99.5 percent identical. (With chimpanzees it's 98 percent.)

Those living in Neanderthal might have even more ... Wink
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 03:03 pm
@Frank Apisa,
One of my psychology professors had been a student of Milgram Wink
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 03:12 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

One of my psychology professors had been a student of Milgram Wink


Probably one of the favorite psychological experiments of Psych professors! Unfortunately, the results are all over the place, but it tells a lot about humans.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 03:13 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Humans living today carry between 1 and 4 percent of Neanderthal genes that carry the code for proteins in our bodies.
The complete genomes of the Neanderthals and modern humans, whose lineages separated from some unknown common ancestor at least 400,000 years ago, are 99.5 percent identical. (With chimpanzees it's 98 percent.)

Those living in Neanderthal might have even more ... Wink


From what I gather, contrary to expectations, the percentage of Neanderthal genes are higher for people who diverged east from the middle east...than who diverged west...into Europe. Scientists have not been able to determine why...but it is an extremely interesting finding, especially since there were no Neanderthals east of the middle east!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 03:17 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
We had had a concentration camp nearby (This wikipedia link only tells very little about what is actually known and exhibited in the museum)
Local people knew "nothing" ... though they lived literally yards away.
Until ... until the SS wanted to re-organise a local annual festival for their purposes.
0 Replies
 
 

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