IS AMERICA A BULLY?

@izzythepush,

Quote:

Is America still detaining people, without trial, offshore so that they don't have the protection of American law?

Yes. And it's shameful

0 Replies

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Izzy...I am doing exactly what I said I was doing.

I am saying that America is IN MY OPINION not as abusive of its great power as other most-powerful-nations have been throughout history.

And when Panzade tells you to check out JTT's post which show your argument is nonsense you run scared.

Izzy, I do not "run scared." If you want to read the kind of crap JTT posts...read it. I have only one person on IGNORE...and that is JTT...who I consider a totally nonsense person.

If you want to make some arguments that you have learned from JTT...present them, although I hope you have more self respect than to ever fall to that depth.

Quote:

You skew the argument and then decide what evidence is admissible. Your argument has all the validity of a Kangaroo Court.

You just do not like hearing that your nation, when it was powerful, was much more ruthless and much less restrictive of the use of its power than America is being with its power.

Sorry that is knocking you so off kilter...but that is your problem to deal with.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
You do support Gitmo.

No I do not. I am calling attention to the fact...that the existence of Gitmo as it is...IS A FACT.

Were you under the bizarre impression that I or anyone else here was somehow UNAWARE of that fact?

As for precise quotes, here you go honey:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Olivier5 wrote:
Is it presumptuous to assume that it is immoral to keep something like a hundred people, most of them innocent of any crime, in state of permanent bondage and torture?

Yes...it is.

Let us know when you found what PRECISELY is presumptuous in that sentence.

1 Reply

So we're basically back at the pot-kettle situation, the tu quoque fallacy. That's not a surprise. The United States has not shown any more restraint than any other "great power." Frank's just too ignorant to know that, and completely unwilling to admit his ignorance, or to cure it.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
You do support Gitmo.

No I do not. I am calling attention to the fact...that the existence of Gitmo as it is...IS A FACT.

Were you under the bizarre impression that I or anyone else here was somehow UNAWARE of that fact?

As for precise quotes, here you go honey:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Olivier5 wrote:
Is it presumptuous to assume that it is immoral to keep something like a hundred people, most of them innocent of any crime, in state of permanent bondage and torture?

Yes...it is.

Let us know when you found what PRECISELY is presumptuous in that sentence.

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
You do support Gitmo.

No I do not. I am calling attention to the fact...that the existence of Gitmo as it is...IS A FACT.

Were you under the bizarre impression that I or anyone else here was somehow UNAWARE of that fact?

As for precise quotes, here you go honey:

Oh...now I know why you thought I was interested in your ass!

Frank Apisa wrote:

Olivier5 wrote:
Is it presumptuous to assume that it is immoral to keep something like a hundred people, most of them innocent of any crime, in state of permanent bondage and torture?

Yes...it is.

Let us know when you found what PRECISELY is presumptuous in that sentence.
[/quote]

The presumption that the people being held in Gitmo are innocent and in a state of permanent bondage and torture...is presumptuous. By definition, actually.

And nowhere in that quote is there any indication that I “support Gitmo” which was the straw man you invented to tilt with earlier.

Try to keep up, Olivier.

Let’s see if you can come up with anything that indicates that I “support Gitmo” (whatever that means)…or that I would not much prefer that the political realities change so that we could close that place down.

I do not know what the reasons for the support by our government…and I am not willing to be as presumptuous as you in supposing it has to be that we are an evil people intent on doing as much evil in the world as possible.

You’re up, Olivier. Where is the quote that says I “support Gitmo.”

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

So we're basically back at the pot-kettle situation, the tu quoque fallacy. That's not surprise. The United States has not shown any more restraint than any other "great power." Frank's just too ignorant to know that, and completely unwilling to admit his ignorance, or to cure it.

I am not ignorant, Jabba...I am merely sharing my opinion that we are not abusing our great power more than any other great power of the past.

And yes...according to t he books, the Hutt's were not as restrained in their use of power as we.

3 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

You just can't deal with criticism, hence the name-calling, which is about as good as it gets when you attempt to debate people who are better-informed than you are. Everyone is ignorant--you, me, Olivier, Izzy--but you're so pigheaded that you can't admit it. You're a pathetic case.

Do some more name-calling, it's about the only reliable debating technique you have.

2 Replies

@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

You just can't deal with criticism, hence the name-calling, which is about as good as it gets when you attempt to debate people who are better-informed than you are. Everyone is ignorant--you, me, Olivier, Izzy--but you're so pigheaded that you can't admit it. You're a pathetic case.

Do some more name-calling, it's about the only reliable debating technique you have.

Jabba, Jabba...calm down. You are going to bust a gut.

Maybe some soft music is in order...like the kind they played in the movie, "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest."

That might calm you down.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I am merely sharing my opinion that we are not abusing our great power more than any other great power of the past.

And yes...according to t he books, the Hutt's were not as restrained in their use of power as we.

Well, those Greeks were less informed as today's USA as well ... it took, if you believe what Herodot wrote, quite some time to spread the news of the win of the battle of Marathon.

What I want to say is that you have to see historic facts (and how "great powers" behaved) in the environment of that period - the enemies of the Huns weren't choirboys either.

2 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
I am merely sharing my opinion that we are not abusing our great power more than any other great power of the past.

And yes...according to t he books, the Hutt's were not as restrained in their use of power as we.

Well, those Greeks were less informed as today's USA as well ... it took, if you believe what Herodot wrote, quite some time to spread the news of the win of the battle of Marathon.

What I want to say is that you have to see historic facts (and how "great powers" behaved) in the environment of that period - the enemies of the Huns weren't choirboys either.

Quite so, Walter.

But some of the indignation being heaped on America is overdone...and if only a few will try to give the issue some perspective...I intend to be part of the few.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

The presumption that the people being held in Gitmo are innocent and in a state of permanent bondage and torture...is presumptuous.

Have they been proved guilty to your satisfaction, then?
Are you aware of any process through which their condition will be made less than permanent?
Are you not aware of the disgusting conditions in which those guys are kept? Let me fill you in:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/04/15/letter-from-gitmo-a-detainee-writes-from-day-65-of-his-hunger-strike/

It seems you’re the one making baseless assumptions here, Frank, and I am the one being well informed about the shame that’s happening.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

As the title of an opinion in Spiegel said:
Obama's PR-offensive: the Kaiser and his vasals. Wink

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
The presumption that the people being held in Gitmo are innocent and in a state of permanent bondage and torture...is presumptuous.

Have they been proved guilty to your satisfaction, then?

I leave that to the people the citizens of the United States voted to make those kinds of decisions.

I guess I could defer to you...but you can imagine why I think that is an absurd thing to do.

Quote:

Are you aware of any process through which their condition will be made less than permanent?

I am aware the the entire of Gitmo could be shut down completely...and all the prisoners dispersed. Do you think this to be something that could not happen?

Quote:

Are you not aware of the disgusting conditions in which those guys are kept? Let me fill you in:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/04/15/letter-from-gitmo-a-detainee-writes-from-day-65-of-his-hunger-strike/

That may or may not be so. I am not willing to be presumptuous enough to suppose either way on that. The people we elected will make those decisions...and if enough of us disagree...we can vote them out of office.

Quote:

It seems you’re the one making baseless assumptions here, Frank, and I am the one being well informed about the shame that’s happening.

I am the one NOT making assumptions, Olivier...in fact, I am the one keeping an open mind about the issue.

You, on the other hand....are making assumptions.

Do so if you want. I prefer not to.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

As the title of an opinion in Spiegel said:
Obama's PR-offensive: the Kaiser and his vasals.

Not actually sure of what you were suggesting in quoting this, Walter...or wjat Der Spiegel was inferring...but reading it at its worst, I'd say:

I certainly do not consider myself a vassal...and I think it insulting to suppose that the citizens who want people who were duly elected to make significant decisions...are vassals.

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

What I want to say is that you have to see historic facts (and how "great powers" behaved) in the environment of that period - the enemies of the Huns weren't choirboys either.

But Walter, Frank isn't being allowed to make his case "in the environment of that period" If he was, we'd have to agree that he makes a good case

Belgian Congo-1885 until 1908
From Wiki

Quote:

From 1885 to 1908, it is estimated that the Congolese native population decreased by about ten million people.[2] Historian Adam Hochshild identifies a number of causes for this loss under Leopold’s reign—murder, starvation, exhaustion and exposure, disease, and plummeting birth rates. Congolese historian Ndaywel e Nziem estimates the death toll at thirteen million.[7] Leopold capitalized on the vast wealth extracted in ivory and rubber during his twenty-three year reign of terror in the CFS. He spent some of this wealth by constructing grand palaces and monuments including the Royal Museum for Central Africa in Tervuren. Ironically, Leopold never visited the kingdom in which he committed such atrocities, to witness the tragedy of his greed.

I'll skip over the Third Reich, we all know the numbers don't we?

Vichy France

Quote:

German authorities reinstituted transports of Jews from France in January 1943 and continued the deportations until August 1944. In all, some 77,000 Jews living on French territory perished in concentration camps and killing centers -- the overwhelming majority of them at Auschwitz -- or died in detention on French soil. One third of these victims were French citizens.

Iraq and Afghanistan-About 500,000 civilian casualties so far.

Gitmo-1,000 held without due process.
Maybe Frank has a good point.. I don't know.

1 Reply

@panzade,

panzade wrote:

Quote:
I agree, Panzada, but I still think we have been showing greater restraint than previous world powers showed when they were at their most powerful.

With all due respect Frank, that is the sugar tit pacifier. The rag soaked in sugar-milk that comforts a discomfited baby at a Baptist revival.

All you need to do is read some of JTT's cut and paste jobs to know you're kidding yourself.

We all should be very selective about JTT's cut and paste jobs, Panzade. They come from websites with a very strong slant and therefore can not be trusted.

One of JTT's sources was a website which described its mission as providing educational outreach for Aryan supremacy views.

Please examine the sources of JTT's information. Some may be reliable, but many are not.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

You're keeping a closed mind, not an open mind. You are very comfortable IGNORING what's happening there, and will continue to ignore it, because you suspect that knowing what's happening in Gitmo would make you puke. And you don't want to puke, right?... That would ruin your little comfy day... So you behave like the German villagers who lived next to concentration camps back in the 40s, and "didn't know what was happening in there"... Heads all firmly buried in the sand.

Ignorance is bliss.

1 Reply

@wandeljw,

Quote:

Some may be reliable, but many are not.

True. True about everybody cutting and pasting here.
But I can read and I am able to discern and I am comfortable with the fact that JTT has <in general> proved his case.
That the US has been a bully in the last 100 years.
And I'll go along with Frank's assertion: That we could have been a lot worse.
Is everybody happy?

2 Replies

WandelJW wrote:

Some may be reliable, but many are not.

On this topic, I wouldn't trust the opinion of someone that works/worked for a governmental agency..

0 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

You're keeping a closed mind, not an open mind.

No...I am not being close minded...I am being open minded. It is YOU who is being closed minded.

Quote:

You are very comfortable IGNORING what's happening there, and will continue to ignore it, because you suspect that knowing what's happening in Gitmo would make you puke.

I read about Gitmo often...and I am of the opinion that everything written is slanted toward the bias of the person writing it. The place is open...and the powers that be here in America have not mustered the needed support to close it. I will keep an open mind on whether it is necessary for now.

Quote:

And you don't want to puke, right?... That would ruin your little comfy day...

Why don't you try to stop this pettiness, Olivier. You are close minded on the issue...where I am still open minded.

Quote:

So you behave like the German villagers who lived next to concentration camps back in the 40s, and "didn't know what was happening in there"... Heads all firmly buried in the sand.

Ignorance is bliss.

I think it is possible that some people in villages close to the camps DID NOT know what was happening. You seem to be sure they did...and that keeping an open mind about whether they did or not...is somehow inferior to what you are doing.

You ought to think this out more carefully.

I doubt you will.

1 Reply

IS AMERICA A BULLY?

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