Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 10:26 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

You do say platitudes in a very outspoken way ! Like this one:
Quote:
If a majority of the government thought Gitmo should have closed...it would be closed by now.

and if Mr de Lapalice was not dead, he would still be alive !


Bottom line: If enough of the leaders of this country thought Gitmo ought to be closed...IT WOULD BE CLOSED.

The fact that it is not closed says more about the truth of the matter than your speculations, Olivier.

Get over yourself.

Quote:

You ask permission to think to your government, if you think that it is presumptuous to disagree with them...


That was a poorly constructed sentence...but if it was reaching for "You are afraid to speak your mind"...you are totally incorrect. I have spoken out in ways that could have gotten me in serious trouble...and I knew it while doing it. But I spoke out anyway.

So you are wrong....just flat out wrong.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 10:30 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Totaling up the butcher's bill is a difficult exercise. I see no good reason to suggest that the United States has exercised a restraint that other nations have not shown.

Hear him Hear him!

I find it quite uncomfortable to be flayed by our compatriots and yet it is imperative that the US end it's flawed state-building efforts.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 10:40 am
@Frank Apisa,
Ok so YOU can speak out against the government but others can't, or they are presumptuous? Explain that to me.

Keeping innocent kids in perpetual bondage, and torturing them day and night just to keep them alive, is abject. And to justify such a crime, as you do, is simply disgusting. Your government stinks to heavens' high for not closing Gitmo. You and they are just a bunch of heartless and scared bureaucrats who don't know any better.

Forgive them Lord for they don't know what they do. Or just send them all to hell. See if I care...
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 10:41 am
@panzade,
panzade wrote:

I see no good reason to suggest that the United States has exercised a restraint that other nations have not shown.


I do. If 18th century Great Britain had taken control of Iraq the way we did...they almost certainly would have added it to the British Empire as conquered land. Napoleon's France almost certainly would have done the same thing...as would 16th century Spain.

Ancient Rome and Greece would have also.

We Americans should, as you suggest below, end its flawed state-building (and many other things)...BUT...we still are exercising greater restraint than past world powers when they were in power.

Quote:
I find it quite uncomfortable to be flayed by our compatriots and yet it is imperative that the US end it's flawed state-building efforts.


I agree, Panzada, but I still think we have been showing greater restraint than previous world powers showed when they were at their most powerful.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 10:46 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Ok so YOU can speak out against the government but others can't, or they are presumptuous? Explain that to me.


Where did I ever say that...or even suggest that?

Olivier...you have a bug up your ass about me...and you are allowing it to rule you in yours posts.

Quote what I said that is getting you frosted.


Quote:

Keeping innocent kids in perpetual bondage, and torturing them day and night just to keep them alive, is abject. And to justify such a crime, as you do...


Refer to my comments above. If you think I am justifying torturing kids day and night...you are allowing the bug up your ass to rule you.

I am not a monster, Olivier.

Quote:
is simply disgusting.


Yes, you are at times.

Quote:
Your government stinks to heavens' high for not closing Gitmo. You and they are just a bunch of heartless and scared bureaucrats who don't know any better.


I am not heartless, I am not scared, and I am not a bureaucrat. But you did spell "who" correctly.

Quote:
Forgive them Lord for they don't know what they do. Or just send them all to hell. See if I care...


Thank you for sharing that.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 10:49 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
If 18th century Great Britain had taken control of Iraq the way we did...they almost certainly would have added it to the British Empire as conquered land.


If 18th century America had taken control of Iraq ...they almost certainly would have added it to the American Empire as conquered land.

Mexico is a precident, California, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico.

Stop comparing 18th Century states with 21st Century ones.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 10:55 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
If 18th century Great Britain had taken control of Iraq the way we did...they almost certainly would have added it to the British Empire as conquered land.


If 18th century America had taken control of Iraq ...they almost certainly would have added it to the American Empire as conquered land.

Mexico is a precident, California, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico.

Stop comparing 18th Century states with 21st Century ones.


How can I do that, Izzy...when the point I am trying to make is that the US is more restrained than other powerful countries were when they were powerful???

How?

I am saying that every powerful country flexes its muscle. I personally think we do it much less...and with greater restraint than other powerful countries did when they were powerful.

You may disagree...and I have acknowledged that reasonable, decent, intelligent people may disagree with me.

But that is my opinion. And I do not appreciate being told to "stop" doing something that I feel ought to be done...simply because you disagree...IF YOU DO.

Do you disagree?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 10:58 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I am not a monster, Olivier.

Of course you are. Don't be so shy... You want innocent kids to remain in bondage forever, and think that whoever decided they should stay in Gitmo forever was a smart ass, who needs to be respected and not contradicted.

A monster you are. A bored, weak-hearted, cowardly, oh-so-normal monster, happy to stay misinformed, happy that crimes be committed in your name as long as you don't hear the victims scream.
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 11:00 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:
That 's OK.
U have your sovereignty; we have ours.


No we don't, not while there's American troops on our soil.


Voila. A Brit learns how it feels like to be a Catholic citizen of Northern Island. How Lov-e-ly.
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 11:03 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Whichever way you want to look at Frank, you can't deny that Guantanamo Bay has been Al Qaida's greatest recruiting sergeant.


Or, thinning the herd. Movin', movin', movin', get those doggies movin', Rawhide!
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 11:10 am
@Frank Apisa,
The only reason America flexes its muscle less is because there's more scrutiny in the 21st Century. America still practices the death penalty and allows poor people to die from preventable diseases.

Your whole argument is based on an anachronism. And none of your platitudes change the fact that almost half a million Iraqis died as a result of the illegal invasion no matter how you try to spin it.

Quote:
About half a million people died in Iraq as a result of war-related causes between the US-led invasion in 2003 and mid-2011, an academic study suggests.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24547256

If you want to compare 21st century invasions why not look at the action in Sierra Leone? We managed to secure peace without killing half a million civilians.

Quote:
The United Kingdom began a military intervention in Sierra Leone in May 2000 under the codename Operation Palliser. Although small numbers of British personnel had been deployed previously, Palliser was the first large-scale intervention by British forces in the Sierra Leone Civil War. In early May 2000, the Revolutionary United Front (RUF)—one of the main parties to the civil war—advanced on the country's capital, Freetown, prompting the British government to dispatch an "operational reconnaissance and liaison team" (ORLT) to prepare to evacuate foreign citizens. On 6 May, the RUF blocked the road connecting Freetown to the country's main airport, Lungi. The next day, British soldiers began to secure the airport and other areas essential to an evacuation. The majority of those who wished to leave were evacuated within the first two days of the operation, but many chose to stay following the arrival of British forces.

After the effective completion of the evacuation, the mandate of the British forces began to expand. They assisted with the evacuation of besieged peacekeepers—including several British ceasefire observers—and began to assist the United Nations Mission in Sierra Leone (UNAMSIL) and the Sierra Leone Army (SLA). Despite the mission expansion, it was not until 17 May that British soldiers came into direct contact with the RUF. The rebels attacked a British position near Lungi airport, but were forced to retreat after a series of firefights. On the same day, the RUF's leader, Foday Sankoh, was captured by Sierra Leonean forces, leaving the RUF in disarray. After deciding that the RUF would not disarm voluntarily, the British began training the SLA for a confrontation. During the training mission, a patrol returning from a visit to Jordanian peacekeepers was taken captive by a militia group known as the West Side Boys. Negotiations achieved the release of five of the eleven soldiers, and three weeks into the crisis, British special forces launched a mission codenamed Operation Barras, freeing the remaining six. The success of Operation Barras restored confidence in the British mission; one academic suggested that its failure would have forced the British government to withdraw all its forces from Sierra Leone.

The overall British operation was mostly completed by September 2000. The RUF began to disarm after political pressure, and later economic sanctions, were exerted on Liberia—which had supported the RUF in exchange for conflict diamonds smuggled out of Sierra Leone. The Sierra Leonean government eventually signed a ceasefire with the RUF that obliged the latter to enter the Disarmament, Demobilisation, and Reintegration (DDR) process. By September 2001, when the British training teams were replaced by an international force, the DDR process was almost complete. British forces continued to be involved in Sierra Leone by providing the largest contribution of personnel to the international training team and advising on a restructuring of Sierra Leone's armed forces. A small force was deployed to the area in 2003 to ensure stability while several indictments and arrests were made by the Special Court for Sierra Leone. The success of British operations in Sierra Leone vindicated several concepts, including the retention of high-readiness forces. The Prime Minister, Tony Blair, was keen to see Western interventions in other conflicts, and—along with France—supported the creation of several European Union Battlegroups for the purpose. As it happened, political opposition and later British commitments in Afghanistan and Iraq prevented further British operations in Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_military_intervention_in_the_Sierra_Leone_Civil_War

Compare the way Tony Blair is viewed in Sierra Leone with how George Bush is seen in Iraq.

Quote:
If Tony Blair were looking for anything to bolster his belief in his Africa mission, his visit to Sierra Leone has provided it.

The people in this devastated and extremely poor country love him.

They love him for helping end the decade of civil war that has destroyed their country.

They love him for pledging never to turn his back on them and their attempts to cement their new democracy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1812394.stm

Quote:
I am free. But my country is still a prisoner of war. There has been a lot of talk about the action and about the person who took it, and about the hero and the heroic act, and the symbol and the symbolic act. But, simply, I answer: what compelled me to act is the injustice that befell my people, and how the occupation wanted to humiliate my homeland by putting it under its boot.

Over recent years, more than a million martyrs have fallen by the bullets of the occupation and Iraq is now filled with more than five million orphans, a million widows and hundreds of thousands of maimed. Many millions are homeless inside and outside the country.

When I threw the shoe in the face of the criminal, George Bush, I wanted to express my rejection of his lies, his occupation of my country, my rejection of his killing my people. My rejection of his plundering the wealth of my country, and destroying its infrastructure. And casting out its sons into a diaspora.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/sep/17/why-i-threw-shoe-bush
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 11:11 am
@Foofie,
You don't have a clue, confine yourself to talking about what happens in your street. It's the only thing you're qualified to talk about.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 11:13 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

The fact that we are rich and powerful is also an important recruiting tool.



Frank, the atrocities done to the Jews in each country that the Nazis invaded made "cowing" the remaining populace much easier. People were happy that the Nazis only wanted to kill Jews enmasse, yet it showed the willingness of the Nazis to murder. So, in my opinion, since the Muslims would like to get some of the sand out of their shoes, and live in a temperate, 21st century society (aka, Europe), maintaining their vitriol towards the U.S. can make the hegemony over Europe by Muslims an easier job. Europeans are happy to just "get along" with the Muslims, acquiescing to Sharia law, etc.

My point is that America is just the scapegoat for the Muslims, so they can migrate to Europe, since the Europeans are foolish enough to think that the Muslims only hate the U.S. and Israel. Let's not forget who had the Crusades. And, in my opinion, many a devout Muslim's perception of time equates the Crusades as something that happened two months ago.
Jack of Hearts
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 11:14 am
@Frank Apisa,

IS AMERICA A BULLY? - "DUH!"
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 11:46 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:

I'm amazed that people are still credulous enough to believe that the Pentagon actually thought Iraq had WMDs immediately prior to invasion.


The average impressionable non-thinking individual believed the GWB administration propaganda....but most thinking people understood the zest with which Cheney/neocons wanted to invade Iraq. They needed a reason that was digestible to the American people and its foreign allies; fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how one looks at it, only Britain a major western ally joined the US. 9/11 tragedy was most welcome by the Bush administration (although there remain skeptics the administration did not do enough to prevent the attack? What happened to NORAD the North America Aerospace Defense Command? Why wasn't it functioning?). The American people were angry by the tragic events of 9/11, the Twin Towers, the attack on the Pentagon, and the other two plane loads of passengers who were lost. Americans of all stripes were ready for revenge and did not particularly care how Bush went about its business. The American people were in a state of shock because never before had such an attack taken place on mainland America.

Reasoning for the Bush's overriding need to invade Iraq: Israel wanted to get rid of a perceived enemy, Saddam Hussein, and Dick Cheney's profiteering for his *former* company, Halliburton and its subsidiaries; Cheney was in charge of Oil well contracts and he said to France, Germany, and other allies if they did not help him invade Iraq their oil contracts with Iraq would NOT be honored.

Later.....Rushing....
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 11:59 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I agree, Panzada, but I still think we have been showing greater restraint than previous world powers showed when they were at their most powerful.


With all due respect Frank, that is the sugar tit pacifier. The rag soaked in sugar-milk that comforts a discomfited baby at a Baptist revival.

All you need to do is read some of JTT's cut and paste jobs to know you're kidding yourself.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 12:03 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
A monster you are. A bored, weak-hearted, cowardly, oh-so-normal monster, happy to stay misinformed, happy that crimes be committed in your name as long as you don't hear the victims scream.


I'm sorry. I can't take you seriously. That's a perfect condemnation of the Vichy government and the genocide they perpetrated.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 12:10 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
Europeans are happy to just "get along" with the Muslims, acquiescing to Sharia law, etc.


You really don't know what you're talking about. There's no European country that would accept the imposition of Sharia law, not even Moslem Bosnia.

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 12:14 pm
There i no doubt that Miller/Foofie is an idiot, but you don't do your case any service by describing Orthodox Christian Serbia as Muslim.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2014 12:15 pm
@Setanta,
Thanks, a momentary lapse of concentration, I've fixed it.
0 Replies
 
 

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