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So Saying That Folks Should Follow Christian Morals is NOW A Firing Offense

 
 
firefly
 
  2  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 01:12 am
Quote:
When You Defend Phil Robertson, Here's What You're Really Defending
Josh Barro
Dec. 21, 2013

Let's get a few things straight about what Phil Robertson said that got him in trouble.

Defenses of Robertson, the star of "Duck Dynasty" suspended for his remarks in an interview with GQ, have focused on the idea that he was just crudely expressing the sincere, Christian view that homosexuality is sinful.

Condemnation of Robertson therefore amounts to condemnation of views that are part of Christian doctrine. What are Christians to do about the fact that their beliefs require them to condemn homosexual acts? Why are cultural elites oppressing Christians by making it forbidden to express their views?

Robertson's defenders should read his comments again, because their defenses are off-point. If you're defending Robertson, here's what you're defending:

1. Robertson thinks black Americans were treated just fine in the Jim Crow-era South, and that they were happy there. "I never, with my eyes, saw the mistreatment of any black person. Not once. Where we lived was all farmers. The blacks worked for the farmers. I hoed cotton with them. I’m with the blacks, because we’re white trash. We’re going across the field.... They’re singing and happy. I never heard one of them, one black person, say, ‘I tell you what: These doggone white people’—not a word!... Pre-entitlement, pre-welfare, you say: Were they happy? They were godly; they were happy; no one was singing the blues."

2.Robertson thinks the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor because they didn't believe in Jesus. "All you have to do is look at any society where there is no Jesus. I’ll give you four: Nazis, no Jesus. Look at their record. Uh, Shintos? They started this thing in Pearl Harbor. Any Jesus among them? None. Communists? None. Islamists? Zero. That’s eighty years of ideologies that have popped up where no Jesus was allowed among those four groups. Just look at the records as far as murder goes among those four groups."

3.Robertson hates gay people. Robertson in 2010: "Women with women, men with men, they committed indecent acts with one another, and they received in themselves the due penalty for their perversions. They’re full of murder, envy, strife, hatred. They are insolent, arrogant, God-haters. They are heartless, they are faithless, they are senseless, they are ruthless. They invent ways of doing evil."

This last one is key. My inbox is full of "love the sinner, hate the sin" defenses of Robertson's 2013 remarks. But Robertson doesn't love gay people. He thinks they're, well, "full of murder." His views on gays are hateful, inasmuch as they are full of hate.

As a side note, it's remarkable how often these things come as a package. Robertson's sincere doctrinal view about the sinfulness of homosexuality comes packaged with animus toward gays and retrograde views about blacks and non-Christians. It's almost as though social conservatism is primarily fueled by a desire to protect the privileges of what was once a straight, white Christian in-group, rather than by sincere religious convictions.

You might recall that conservatives are currently trying to figure out what to do about the fact that the Republican Party performs quite poorly with the growing share of voters who are not white, straight Christians. They think some of it has to do with economic issues. But then they're scratching their heads, trying to figure out how Mitt Romney lost the Asian American vote 3-to-1 even though, by Republican "maker-vs.-taker" metrics, Asian Americans are disproportionately likely to be "makers."

Non-whites and non-Christians and gays keep getting the sense that, even setting aside policy, conservatives and Republicans just don't care for them. The "Duck Dynasty" episode, with Ted Cruz and others rushing out to defend Robertson's honor, is just another example of why.
http://www.businessinsider.com/when-you-defend-phil-robertson-heres-what-youre-really-defending-2013-12#ixzz2oedQyrlO

Quote:
The conservative politicians who are complaining that Phil Robertson's firing flies in the face of "free speech" are generally smart enough to understand that Robertson doesn't actually have a legal right to be on A&E. When Sarah Palin and her cohorts talk about the importance of "free speech," they mean something much more specific: That the sorts of things that Robertson said are not the sorts of things a private employer should want to fire someone for saying. That they are, or ought to be, within the bounds of social acceptability.

But they're wrong. The other America — the America I live in — has this one right. Racist and anti-gay comments and comments disparaging of religious minorities are rude and unacceptable and might cost you your job. It's not OK to say that gay people are "full of murder."

I will add one caveat... The things Phil Robertson said should get you fired from most jobs. But starring on a reality show is a special kind of job, one where demonstrating that you are a good person who follows good social conventions may not be necessary.

For example, if at a Business Insider function I were to flip over a table and call one of my colleagues a "prostitution whore," I'd probably be fired. But when a Real Housewife of New Jersey does that, she's doing her job just fine. Similarly, Phil Robertson represents some very real pathologies of his culture, and his job is to provide a look into the reality of that culture to the TV viewer.

In some sense, when Robertson compares gays to terrorists, he's doing his job, too. So I'm sympathetic to the idea that A&E shouldn't suspend him for this. But if they shouldn't suspend him, it's because it's acceptable for Robertson to say unacceptable things, not because his remarks were acceptable.

http://www.businessinsider.com/phil-robertson-duck-dynasty-two-americas-2013-12#ixzz2oejKgc9C
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 02:05 am
@firefly,


that is power baby!
BillRM
 
  1  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 07:37 am
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye maybe Glaad could find a gay family with shotguns to replaced them and the ninety millions or so they are bringing into A@E bottom line.

What would by great is if the whole family would call a press conference and sing that song of Johnny.....LOL
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  0  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 09:01 am
To Josh Barro,

Maybe A&E should have given Robertson a list of things that were acceptable for him to say during a conversation with a magazine. A&E hired these people. What did they expect from them? A&E is showing their hypocrisy to satisfy political "correctness". If A&E had any guts, they would cancel the show entirely.
IRFRANK
 
  1  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 09:24 am
@firefly,
Quote:
It's almost as though social conservatism is primarily fueled by a desire to protect the privileges of what was once a straight, white Christian in-group, rather than by sincere religious convictions.


Yes. There's a lot of that at work here too.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 09:29 am
What's the big deal? Robertson said that homosexuality is a sin and that gays will, no doubt, burn in hell. According to a widespread interpretation of Christianity (which Robertson apparently shares), homosexuals will burn in hell. On the other hand, he didn't say that he wanted to kill all the fags or even that he wanted to discriminate against them.

So this is really just a theological dispute. There are plenty of nut cases who espouse all sorts of offensive religious tenets, yet they mostly go unnoticed. I'm not sure why people have their undies in a bunch about Robertson. So what if Robertson's god condemns all homosexuals to an eternity of fiery damnation? As the Dude wisely pointed out: "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
IRFRANK
 
  2  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 10:20 am
@joefromchicago,
No, he said a lot more than that.


Quote:
3.Robertson hates gay people. Robertson in 2010: "Women with women, men with men, they committed indecent acts with one another, and they received in themselves the due penalty for their perversions. They’re full of murder, envy, strife, hatred. They are insolent, arrogant, God-haters. They are heartless, they are faithless, they are senseless, they are ruthless. They invent ways of doing evil."


MontereyJack
 
  2  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 10:52 am
As firefly has repeatedly pointed out, this is a suspension, not a firing. It may very well be a shot across Robertson's bow, a warning that he's really being a consummate asshole and if he wants to keep the money-printing machine that A&E has given him going, he'd better rethink how he runs his mouth and stop alienating the more than half the country that supports gay marriage, the even larger percentage that supported the repeal of "don't ask, don't tell", and the descendants of slaves who really don't think that people forced to chop cotton for no money all their lives were happy about it. Or he can ignore all of them and just say more stuff that makes Sarah Palin ecstatic. Wonder how many duck calls she buys.

Yeah, we have free speech, but words inevitably have consequences.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:15 am
@IRFRANK,
IRFRANK wrote:

No, he said a lot more than that.


Quote:
3.Robertson hates gay people. Robertson in 2010: "Women with women, men with men, they committed indecent acts with one another, and they received in themselves the due penalty for their perversions. They’re full of murder, envy, strife, hatred. They are insolent, arrogant, God-haters. They are heartless, they are faithless, they are senseless, they are ruthless. They invent ways of doing evil."

Well, first of all, that was three years ago. Why wasn't there an uproar then?

Secondly, that sounds like Robertson spouting off again about his religious beliefs. "Gays are sinners, and so god punishes them by filling them with murder, envy, etc. etc." Clearly, Robertson thinks that god hates fags, but I still don't see him saying anything about discriminating against homosexuals. So, to my mind, it's still just a theological controversy. If you believe in Robertson's version of god, you should agree with him. If you don't, then you shouldn't. What's the big deal?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:16 am
@MontereyJack,
I get what you are saying. But I think you are wrong about A&E.

This "scandal" is pure gold for them. They get to increase viewership in a way that makes both sides interested. The evangelical Christians are eating this up... they are buying what A&E is selling them, and the GLAAD people are placated by the suspension, while now feeling that they have to watch.

I am quite sure that this was no accident. The GQ interview, and all of the fall out, were carefully scripted by very smart people in a conference room in the A&E marketing department.

They pulled off a marketing coup. It is quite brilliant really.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:22 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
If you believe in Robertson's version of god, you should agree with him. If you don't, then you shouldn't. What's the big deal?
the big deal is that pro gay rights pressure groups think that they might have the power to silence the Christians, by labeling their doctrine "hate speech".

joefromchicago
 
  2  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:32 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
the big deal is that pro gay rights pressure groups think that they might have the power to silence the Christians, by labeling their doctrine "hate speech".

But it is hate speech. It's just that the hatred is embedded within Robertson's religion. Robertson isn't saying "I hate gays," he's saying "god hates gays." He may be right or wrong on a theological basis, but that's a theological question - and that probably should be of no concern to the millions who either: (1) reject Robertson's interpretation of scripture; or (2) don't give a damn about religion one way or another. I'm confident that most of the people criticizing Robertson fall into one or the other of those groups, which is why their criticism mystifies me. It's as if they're calling on A&E to fire him because he's theologically unsound. That's odd coming from Christians, and it's absolutely baffling coming from non-Christians.
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:33 am
when you say "the Christians", hawk, you imply that there is only one Christian viewpoint, and that it is anti-gay, and that is simply not so. There are thousands of Christian viewpoints, few of them as extreme as Phil Robertson, and a whole hell of a lot of them will vociferously disagree with him, and with you. And, yeah, what he has consistently said is a lot closer to hate speech than to Jesus speech.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:37 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
But it is hate speech
Phil would have been smarter to make his hate speech clearly about the acts, not the individuals. He has always said "I love everybody" which helps, but the quotes in GQ were fuzzy on where the hate was directed.

keep in mind that I dont think that hate speech should be punished, ever.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:56 am
@woiyo,
Quote:
Maybe A&E should have given Robertson a list of things that were acceptable for him to say during a conversation with a magazine.

Actually, an A & E representative was sitting next to Robertson during the GQ interview.

I don't think A & E really cares what he says. They just don't want to be seen as endorsing any of it.
Quote:
What did they expect from them? A&E is showing their hypocrisy to satisfy political "correctness".

I don't think this about "political correctness". They probably really don't agree with Robertson, not just about gays, but his odd-ball views about blacks, why the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, etc. And there's still more to come--the GQ interview also included his views on health insurance and the separation of church and state, which we haven't heard yet.

From A & E's standpoint, I don't think this has anything to do with the specific content of anything Robertson said to GQ. I think they don't expect, or want, any serious controversy from the duck clan. They want them to be somewhat goofy, and odd, and just do their shtick of being multi-millionaires who live like just plain folks in rural backwater Louisiana, and who spend their time horsing around with each other, running a business with seemingly minimal effort and loads of free time, and reflecting their love of family, and the "simple life" of living off the land.

They don't want them actually stirring up real life contentious issues that expose the deep divides in the country, with people heatedly taking sides, and politicians and civil rights groups jumping in to express outrage of all kinds, or in fact, doing anything that puts A & E in the middle of that sort of unwanted controversy. They hired these people to do their millionaire redneck shtick, and that just doesn't include getting their employer involved in this sort of sticky wicket. A & E really doesn't want to be in the middle, they just want to keep running a very profitable show without having to side with anyone.

So that's why A & E really isn't doing much of anything. Their integrity really isn't at stake. They aren't endorsing anything about this family, they are simply putting them on display, mostly in fluff situations, and letting people observe them and decide for themselves. And, within the confines of a somewhat contrived and scripted "reality" show, that simulates spontaneity, and touches on no real controversy, a lot of people enjoy watching these folk, for whatever the reason. And A & E has no real reason to tamper with that--they've got a hit, and a moneymaker, and they want to keep it that way.

And the Robertsons want this platform and show, it's what's helping their business empire to thrive and expand, and that's why they keep signing their contracts, and they aren't going to toss that all away, or louse it up. They've got a moneymaker, and they want to keep it that way. These people aren't fools, and no one is actually telling them how to live or think, and they know they have no God-given right to a TV reality show. They won't blow this deal either.

So, while everyone else is busy making noise, and taking sides, and generating loads of free publicity, and buying tons of Duck Dynasty merchandise, that makes both the Robertsons and A & E happy and richer, the two parties will likely continue doing business as usual. The new season is starting, and another one might follow that if both parties still find it profitable.

This is all about MONEY, it has nothing to do with free speech, or religious freedom, or social issues, or "integrity". These two parties are involved in a business relationship, and one is the employer and the other isn't. And, as is the case in most business relationships, if you want to keep your employer happy, you don't give them reason to fire you. And, so far, the Robertsons have no reason to quit, they have a show that's like an infomercial for their brand.

So, A & E isn't going to do anything, except start running the new season of Duck Dynasty in a few weeks, let the noise die down, and then decide if they want to go with yet another season.

Phil Robertson is just acting like Phil Robertson, and, he's still being in character for what his reality show expects him to be--someone who is clearly out of the mainstream, and rather iconoclastic.

A & E has no more reason to dump Robertson for his GQ remarks, or his comments elsewhere, than MTV had to dump Snooki, of Jersey Shore "fame" when she got herself arrested for being drunk and disorderly on a beach.
Quote:
She's all crass.

"Jersey Shore" star Nicole (Snooki) Polizzi was arrested Friday after an apparently epic beach bender and was hauled away in cuffs wearing a T-shirt that read "SLUT."

Disheveled in a garish miniskirt that was tighter than sausage casing, the reality-TV "guidette" was later released with a summons....

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/jersey-shore-star-snooki-arrested-seaside-heights-charged-disorderly-conduct-report-article-1.200986#ixzz2ogzRo1FL

Snooki was behaving exactly the way she was expected to behave, she wasn't destroying anyone's image of her. And the same is true of Phil Robertson.

And people don't expect either Snooki or Robertson to necessarily conform to anyone's idea of what's right, or appropriate, or acceptable. If they did that, their reality shows wouldn't have much interest.

And I'd put the importance of their comments, about anything, in exactly the same class in terms of social importance.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:58 am
@firefly,
Quote:
Actually, an A & E representative was sitting next to Robertson during the GQ interview.

which probably accounts for reports that the family thinks A&E set Phil up......
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  0  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 12:00 pm
@firefly,
Agree, A&E got MILLIONS in free advertising for doing what they did and the way they did it. I do not think they really care what he said, but I wager they are glad he said it.

Are the Marathon showings still going on?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 12:05 pm
@woiyo,
Quote:
Are the Marathon showings still going on?

no, but reports are the A&E majorly pissed off the gay rights pressure groups when they did them, as well as by not committing to editing Phil out of the new shows.
woiyo
 
  0  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 12:10 pm
@hawkeye10,
Oh well, can't please everyone I suppose.

I am surprised that so many "gays" even watch the show. How else would they know Phil was on? Wink
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Fri 27 Dec, 2013 12:19 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
but reports are the A&E majorly pissed off the gay rights pressure groups when they did them, as well as by not committing to editing Phil out of the new shows.

Hawkeye, they don't care about the reaction from any of the civil rights groups, not the ones expressing the opinions of either gays or blacks. A & E isn't endorsing the duck clan, or any of their opinions, they are simply putting them on display, in a reality show, and making loads of money by doing that. This isn't the only program on their network. And the reactions from the Republican right help to promote the show.

I don't think they really care what this man says. So far, he really hasn't crossed any line in terms of what people expect from him, and he only speaks for himself. A & E doesn't want to have to take anyone's side in the controversy about what he says. And the show itself doesn't reflect controversy, or focus on serious social issues, it's more fluff than anything else.

Reality TV is in a class by itself.

And this is about nothing but MONEY for A & E. It's really of no importance to them what Robertson thinks about social issues. He's just another Snooki, and, so far, he's behaving in character.

 

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