Have The Nazis Taken Over?

some examples connected with civil rights, especially connected with Arab Americans - it was much much quicker then even I expected - note that violations of civil right and situation in one country does not have to be connected only with laws, and also note that I said that civil rights are worse in USA only comparing with civilized world. I still agree that in Saudi Arabia is worse.
http://www.struggle.ws/issues/war/afghan/pamwt/wt2/usa.html

Pilots and passengers on airplanes refused to fly with Arab-looking passengers

Over a thousand Middle Eastern men were rounded up and imprisoned, some held for weeks without contact with their families or lawyers - on the excuse, if one was given, of investigations into their visas

A law was soon passed, with the initials USA PATRIOT Act. It gave federal and other police things they had been wanting for years: more money for new technology, the right to get warrants but not tell the suspects that the warrants existed, to sneak into a place and gather information without telling the subjects about it, to investigate student records or credit records without warrants, to hold non-citizens for up to six months, regardless of immigration judge orders.

These egregious violations of liberty were then expanded by administrative fiat, without consultation with congress. The police were allowed to overhear lawyer-client conversations in prisons for non-citizens. Military tribunals were given the right to try non-citizens, on US soil or overseas, without lawyers, without even the standards of military justice, and able to put subjects to death.

and then there are some comparations with practice in countries well known for their enormous civil rights like Erithrea, Pakistan or Liberia.

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/loss/imbalance/powers_chp5.pdf

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Michael Moore is not the most respected writer in the US. In fact, many people do not believe what he says. He won an award for a "documentary" movie that he made, but the movie was not a documentary. It was a combination of facts with a narration that made it into fiction.

You didn't say how Bush and Hitler's speeches were similar, so I have no idea how to discuss this with you.

There are many people who do not like the electoral college method of electing a President, but it is the rule as called out in our national constitution, so unless we change that we must do our elections that way.

The coffins are military property, and they were on military airplanes, so the military makes the rules about how they are treated. If the military rules say that you can't take pictures of them, and you take pictures anyway, then the military can terminate your employment. It has nothing to do with democracy and everything to do with following the work rules laid out by the company you work for.

I suppose the US government has some similarities to communism. There is a leader, there are rules and laws, there are punishments and prisons. I have never lived under communism so I don't know what it is like. I've heard stories about having to wait for hours to buy potatoes or a loaf of bread, and that you have to get on a waiting list to buy a pair of shoes. Wasn't the phrase "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" the basis for communism? I heard that under communism, each citizen was paid a certain amount of money even if they did no work, so they could go and buy their vodka. And after the fall of the Soviet Union, many people who had no jobs had no way of earning any money since their payments were not coming in any more. From my perspective it's hard to understand how someone could sit at home and make the same amount of money as someone who worked at a job every day. But maybe I have the wrong impression about communism. I would love to hear you tell some stories about what it was like.

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fact that I was saying in debating about if there are similarities between Bush govt. and Nazi Germany was also that I think you cannot define one ideology by only one example. Nazism was, luckily, strong only in Germany, while communism was strong in many countries. So, I believe many things you are mentioning are actually true, although not a single one of them is true when we talk about ex-Yugoslavia. Okay, ocassionaly there were shortages in ex-Yu too, but never of food, clothes or stuff like that - I remember once while I was kid that it was shortage of, hm, I am short of english word - detergent? Stuff you use for washing clothes. And I think once was shortage of coffee.
But, truth is that yugoslavian communism was much much better then one in Soviet Union or in members of Warshaw pact. In many of these countries people were not allowed to travel at all, or were allowed to travel only between those countries and sometimes to Yugoslavia, as only country they were allowed to visit and that was not member of Warshaw pact. In Yugoslavia everybody had passport and was allowed to travel wherever. So, from that perspective, and from what friends from those countries were telling me you are probably right about communism in many other countries - because it was pretty sad to see how they are looking at us with same eyes we looked West - kids that saw chocolate for the first time, adults staring in shops filled with all possible articles, TV satellites everywhere...yeah, I guess most of your examples were likely true in many communistic countries.

As for unemployed, they had social help, like in socialistic countries, but unemployment was pretty low in Yugoslavia. Actually, Yugoslavia was in many ways more socialist then communist country - main communistic characteristics that YU also had were - only one party, long time private companies were forbidden, then there was no independent media (they were somewhat independent on lower levels in way that they were allowed to attack local politicians, but never national, unless given green light by stronger politicians) and there was also some kind of repression, although on much much lower level then in USSR or countries of their pact. E.g. there was no private companies, and you couldn't get any really good job if you were critisizing Party - but they wouldn't kill you or send you to jail, and you could still be ordinary worker. Of course, I am saying that for 70's and 80's, after WW2, especially before conflict with USSR, people were sent to jail for such things.

On the good sides - Health system was free for everybody, govt. was providing social help for all unemployed (but they had to accept job if offered), and (in Yugoslavia, probably not in most of other countries) people lived pretty well - you were unable to get really rich, but no one was hungry or homeless.

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as for other topics, I believe many democrats supporters would say that Michael Moore is respected.
But I am not talking in republicans-democrats way. Generally, I disliked Clinton and Bush I too, but I haven't meant that they are small Nazi's

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Yes, detergent is used for washing clothes - you have the right word. I admire you for using English so well when I only have my English and bad Spanish.

When I was in school, I think it was around 1964, we had a substitute teacher named Mr. Figenbaum. He said that his name meant "fig tree" but I don't recall what language it was. He had lived in a communist country and wanted to tell us about it. He said that a man came to his house and asked him why had had not been present at the Party meeting. Mr. Figenbaum said that he had been sick. The man asked him if he had visited his doctor. Mr. Figenbaum said that he wasn't sick enough to visit his doctor. The man said that if he wasn't sick enough to visit his doctor, he wasn't sick enough to miss the Party meeting. That story always stuck in my mind as an example of how the communist party controlled people.

Thanks for your story. It is interesting to hear how the system worked. When I was in the US Navy I was ready to go kill the communists. It's nice to be free of that, but I think it's important to remember what they did and how they functioned, so we don't fall under their control again.

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Figenbaum was perhaps originally Feigenbaum, which is German and means fig tree.

When I was in the navy, I never was ready to kill communists: a) I live in a democracy, where you can't kill others only because they are in a different party, b) the "bad" German communists were as young conscripts as I was.

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paultheeggman wrote:

You liberals need to stop getting this crap from MoveOn.org and get something original. This Nazi/Hitler stuff is worn out.

You guys just can't deal with a decent, moral man who means what he says and says what he means and does what he says he is going to do. You just can't stand it, can you? You want a Bill Clinton B.S.er back, eh? Well, you may want to consider the safety of your children before voting that way.

By the way, I am registered. Any of you liberals registered yet? Or are you going after the "chads" again?

This is a very poor-quality post.

I do not get any "stuff" from Moveon.org

And, it would be better to leave American internal politics out of this thread. Raise your gaze from your own navel.

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Oops, sorry, I made a mistake, caused by the fact that I thought I was writing on the Iraq thread.

Of course American internal politics should be discussed here. I can say that, to an outsider, there is very little discernable difference between the two American political parties.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Figenbaum was perhaps originally Feigenbaum, which is German and means fig tree.

Many US immigrants changed the spelling of their names when they came to the US. Or maybe I don't remember the name correctly, but I thought that's what he wrote on the blackboard.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

When I was in the navy, I never was ready to kill communists: a) I live in a democracy, where you can't kill others only because they are in a different party, b) the "bad" German communists were as young conscripts as I was.

I was in the Navy during the Cold War when our potential enemy was the Soviet Navy. The statement about killing was nothing but Submarine Service bravado. The closest I could have come to killing someone was to take a chemistry sample of the primary or secondary coolant system, or a radiation survey of the reactor plant. Everyone on board thought they were indispensible to making the boat run, but the guys who worked in the front end were the ones who would have fired the torpedoes and done the actual killing.

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Were i to have killed anyone while in the Army, they would have had to lie still while i stabbed them with surettes, each containing 1/4 grain of morphine, until they o.d.'ed . . . i never asked anyone though--when the weather outside gets lead-laden, i'm to be found face down in the lowest piece of ground available. I'm a practicing coward, and have lived past 50, which suggests i've been successful at it.

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Tarantulas wrote:

I was in the Navy during the Cold War when our potential enemy was the Soviet Navy. The statement about killing was nothing but Submarine Service bravado. The closest I could have come to killing someone was to take a chemistry sample of the primary or secondary coolant system, or a radiation survey of the reactor plant. Everyone on board thought they were indispensible to making the boat run, but the guys who worked in the front end were the ones who would have fired the torpedoes and done the actual killing.

Well, at my time in the navy (they said, it was Cold War as well), opposite to you, I passed fully armed Russian, Polish and German Democratic Navy boats and ships in yard-distances, at night, when he had to confirm their identity "manually".(The only 'shots' fired came from their 1.5-meter-searchlights, when they tried to blind us.)

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Tarantulas wrote:

Yes, detergent is used for washing clothes - you have the right word. I admire you for using English so well when I only have my English and bad Spanish.

When I was in school, I think it was around 1964, we had a substitute teacher named Mr. Figenbaum. He said that his name meant "fig tree" but I don't recall what language it was. He had lived in a communist country and wanted to tell us about it. He said that a man came to his house and asked him why had had not been present at the Party meeting. Mr. Figenbaum said that he had been sick. The man asked him if he had visited his doctor. Mr. Figenbaum said that he wasn't sick enough to visit his doctor. The man said that if he wasn't sick enough to visit his doctor, he wasn't sick enough to miss the Party meeting. That story always stuck in my mind as an example of how the communist party controlled people.

Thanks for your story. It is interesting to hear how the system worked. When I was in the US Navy I was ready to go kill the communists. It's nice to be free of that, but I think it's important to remember what they did and how they functioned, so we don't fall under their control again.

of course, it's good to know languages, but it's different when you speak English - you don't really NEED to know other languages for international correspondence. In Croatia (and in EX Yugoslavia) kids learn foreign languages in school from when they are 10 years old. When I was kid it was divided - one class was learning English, one German, one French and one Russian, and you couldn't choose (cause in that case nobody would choose Russian and 90% would choose English) so it was pure luck actually. My class got English.
Today every class learns English and you can choose to learn German or Italian as well (but you don't have to) in primary school. In high school most of kids learn both English and German.

As for Mr.Figenbaum stories...in Ex-YU there were three levels. First there were Tito's pioneers, all kids were becoming "pioneers" when we were like 7 or 8 (we had to wear blue cap with red star, white t-shirt, and red, again I am short of the word - thing you put around neck - but we had to wear it only on holidays not all the times). Everybody was pioneer.
Then, on first or second year of high school (14 or 15 yo) almost everyone was becoming member of Communist Youth - almost everyone, because there were few exceptions, if someone was really terribly bad student or had criminal record or something then he was not allowed. Actually, this part was pure tradition - as a member of it you had absolutely no duties or something.
And later, you could choose for yourself. You could become member of Party or not, they haven't cared that much. My father was never member, and my mother was expelled because of criticising (but she stayed on her job and everything).

Thing that separated Yugoslavia of other communistic countries was that "we" were leaders of "third pact", I think english word is "non-alignment" pact. Members were Yugoslavia, Malta, some South-American and Middle-American countries and almost all african and asian countries. And official politic was critic both to West and Communist World, but to be honest YU was probably more leaned to West. I know that we never had any stories about bad Americans or something, while Soviet Union was big terrible and scary country that is going to crush us if we are not prepared Smile

Only thing connected with "bad West" was that West Germans were not allowed to come to some croatian islands, and no foreigners were allowed to come to one island, but that was all connected with WW2.

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Where to begin. I'll just pick out some statements.

Quote:

Do you understand that Hitler haven't done ANYTHING to your country when he was in power for 3-4 years?

30,000 German Jews seeking refuse. We DID notice it you know.

Quote:

Do you understand difference of world in 30's and 40's when you were able to have concentration camps for your lunatic ideas and for people around the world not knowing anything about it until allied forces won the war?

Where do you get that from? Before the Second World War started the West already knew about for example Dachau concentrationcamp. After Kristallnacht many male Jews were taken to German concentrationcamps. Most of them were released in the following three, four months. A lot of them sought refuge in other countries, and told their stories. When Hitler invaded us in 1940, we knew about the concentrationcamps.
And in the middle of the war - 1941, 1942 - allied governments already knew about the Einsatzgruppen, and later they also got stories about camps like Auschwitz, gained from the few people who managed to escape this destructioncamp, like Rudolf Vrba. Only thing is: the allied governments didn't do anything about it.
And for the public? In the occupied countries it was not known (or: almost not known), but for example in New York City they already reported about the killing of millions of Jews (got this from famous historian Raul Hilberg). But I imagine these are just minor details in our big discussion...

Quote:

Are you aware that you can't actually just make totalitarian state in country of 300 million people even if you want to? And that you can, instead, give those people feelings that they have democratic elections?

What do you want to tell me? Is this some sort of conspiracy, which I don't know of?

Quote:

Do you KNOW that president of USA is man that got LESS votes on elections?

ABSOLUTELY a shame!! You are completely true. Question is: was it on purpose?

Quote:

Hitler was much worse then Mussollini as well.

Although this sounds stupid: mussolini was a fascist. Hitler was a nazi. There is a difference between fascism and nazism. But if you come up with the argumentation "they are all bad, but the one less than the other, but still bad" I can agree with you TOTALLY. I do not like Bush, and I think he is a bad, very BAD, US president. But that does not make him a Nazi yet. That's my point.

I do not like Bush, and I do not want to protect him. I would vote Nader :wink: When someone has a totally wrong way of ruling a country (or, in the case of the US presidents, ruling the world), then that does not make him a Nazi. He can do a lot of bad things, and he can do that out of an ideology you oppose. But it's all about these ideologies. The Pope has an ideology I do not agree with (though I'm Catholic). I do not see him as a Nazi, although with his views on condoms, male/female roles, homosexuality he is - in my eyes - a person who is influencing our world on a bad way (to say it in a nice manner). He's also a spiritual source, and out of his name there's also a lot of good done, and there are a lot of people who admire him, not out of fear, but because he is the messenger from God (just one of the reasons). Again, I would not say he's a Nazi, because in my eyes, the Nazi's were "loved" out of fear or people loved them because they had cruel and racist ideas about how our world should look like. There were also people who loved them of course because of the way they pulled Germany out of the economical crisis. But the Nazi's killed, on purpose. They destroyed, on purpose. They did not offer another way for Jews, for Roma and Sinti, for mentally disabled. THAT is a Nazi.

And that is NOT George W. Bush (which I STILL consider to be one of the worst US Presidents ever).

Thank you.

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okay, we are now basically in position that we agree in almost all things, just that we have different conclusions from more or less same premises Smile

I think that nobody in modern society can be Nazi in a way that Hitler was. I mean, of course someone can, but he can't gain such support anymore - I am talking about modern societies, probably in Rwanda where no one has internet or satellite TV, and people are living in villages without electricity some local Nazi still can appear, just as they appeared decade or 15 years ago.

So, to be honest, I can't say that I deeply believe that Bush is Nazi in full meaning. I think that he has some nazistic ideas, that he is lunatic, that some of his goals are just more sofisticated methods of achieving what Nazi's were trying to achieve and, as a matter of fact, I really DO believe that he thinks Christians are UBERMENSCH - actually, on this forum you may see SOME (not all) of Bush's supporters having same crappy Christian-Ubermensch thoughts.
Or, ocassionaly you may hear that in USA-Ubermensch cover - where USA is greatest country and nation in the world ever, and all world is just jealous - doesn't that sound like Hitler's speeches?

And USA govt. today also destroys on purpose. Not in a way Nazi's were, but they do.

So, I respect your opinion, but I still believe that Bush is much closer to being Nazi then you think. Huge difference is that american society today is much more aware of some things then german society in 1930's, so he is completely unable to do more then he is already doing.

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I think you watch too much TV. Laughing

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damn; I really do Smile

but not in a way you think, I just watch every stupid sport humankind invented - so, if watching long final session of World Snooker Championship (best of 35), and then Czechs and Americans in World hockey Championship trying to score in penalty shootout for half an hour can make you see Nazis around you, then you are right Smile

As a matter fact, maybe it can Smile

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Rick said "And that is NOT George W. Bush (which I STILL consider to be one of the worst US Presidents ever)."

Thanks to this administration, during a few short years, America has changed from the nation with the most respected leader on earth into one where almost the only people who like the President are Bush voters and the mentally ill. Crying or Very sad

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Two words: drama queen Cool

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I think McTag may have a lead which has not been discussed widely. I have read that there is a suspicion that the Mossad, in league with the forces behind George W. Bush, told Jews who worked in the WTC to stay home from work on that date. This explains why so few Jews were killed in the WTC according to the story. It also tells us that Israeli intelligence forces and the Bush Administration were on the same page.

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Well mporter the story that few Jews have died in the WTC attacks is a lie an sich. This story is just one of many conspiracies concerning Jews and Mossad, but there is no ground for these allegations.

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