The results of the siege of Fallujah

--Edited because it no longer makes sense . . . and it was in poor taste--

As much as I hate this stupid war and the goddam admin that put us there, I dont find this particularly clever or valuable. Do you ?

Perhaps a reminder that these are real people dying will be useful for some here.

An appeal to pity through imagery?

Put me down for what farmerman said.

Those pictures are shocking, and some would say inappropriate. But they are the realities of war. People need to be exposed to them. We aren't seing this over here in America. Even on 9/11 we never actually saw the bodies because they were covered up with American flags.

The pictures shown above are shocking, but they are tame compared to what's really going on.

I am not sure why people object to seeing photos of what really happens, although I worry itcould be a bit voyeuristic.

Can Farmerman or Craven tell me what they believe the problem is?

I certainly do not want to see them....but I think it foolish to pretend this is not what wars look like - and far worse.

Ditto for seeing what really happens to the soldiers etc.

I am not so much making a point - I am really curious to know.

hobitbob. PLEASE put a disclaimer on the title of this thread.

I found it educating.

I was going to suggest what littlek said.
The thread needs a warning.

I think these people deserve the same treatment we thought appropriate for the dead bodies of our murdered service personnel and the Hussein brothers.

To broadcast pictures of dead bodies whether for propaganda, manipulation or any other purpose, IMO, is in very poor taste.

It's a common fallacy called an appeal to pity. Thing is, proponents from either side can call up gruesome imagery. For example, a pro-war type could post pictures of children Saddam gassed or (and I saw this linked to on A2K once) pictures of his torture victims (the exact example I remember was pictures of an athlete one of Saddam's sons had tourtured using the imagery to justify the war in a "look at the type of thing we are stopping" argument).



Oh I agree, thing is, this is not particular to any side, so anyone can invoke the imagery in an appeal to pity.

The pro-war camp could post similar pictures of babies lying dead from Saddam's acts for example.

I think farmerman's objection was similar to mine, yes this is the reality of war, but it's use as shock value doesn't say much about the validity of the war itself. You can find such images from wars that you would consider "valid" ones.

Both myself and farmerman are very much against the war, but I personally think the pictures are an easy emotional appeal.

Anywho, I just wanted to answer your query, I don't wanna get on the wrong side of said emotions and argue this so I probably won't say much more about the dissent to my position that I am sure is to come.

It is very sad, and few people realize, or want to realize, that it is real people we are affecting.

Appropiate
Iraq Council Demands Immediate Cease-Fire


AP via Guardian online

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3960608,00.html


Saturday April 10, 2004 2:01 AM
(GMT or more likely BST, presumably)

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - In a split between U.S.-picked Iraqi leaders and American administrators, the Governing Council demanded an immediate cease-fire across the country Friday and a halt to military operations that punish civilians.

Particularly worrisome are claims of collective punishments:
One of the strongest pro-U.S. voices on the council, Adnan Pachachi, denounced the U.S. siege, launched after Sunni insurgents killed four U.S. contract workers and a mob dragged their burned and mutilated bodies through the streets and hung two of them from a bridge.

"These (U.S.) operations were a mass punishment for the people of Fallujah," Pachachi told Al-

Crowds Protest U.S.-Led Seige of Fallujah

MAAMOUN YOUSSEF
Associated Press


CAIRO, Egypt - Across the Middle East, angry crowds on Friday denounced the U.S.-led siege of the Iraqi city of Fallujah and praised insurgents for resisting what clerics and commentators likened to Israeli attacks.



At Cairo's Al-Azhar mosque, one of Sunni Islam's oldest, some 500 men called President Bush "the enemy of God" and demanded Egypt expel the American and Israeli ambassadors from Egypt.

"Iraqi resistance is defending you and your honor and without this resistance you will find America in Cairo and in Riyadh," Mustafa Bakri, editor of the weekly Al-Osboa newspaper, shouted to worshippers.

<reluctant snip>

Libyan state television announced that Saturday will be a "day of mourning ... for the martyrs who fell in Fallujah in defense of their land, homes and honor." Flags will fly at half staff, it said.

"America is carrying out the same actions in Iraq that Israel is carrying out in the occupied (Palestinian) territories - an army leading a war against civilians," Saudi political analyst Dawood al-Shirian told The Associated Press.

<snip>

http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/news/special_pa...


http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040409/lthumb.sge.fyc60.090404192258.photo02.default

*Obviously Bushco knows that these photos are too delicate for Americans so they are forbidding Al Jazera in the city now. Also, they are trying to get the seniors, woman and children out so they can slaughter the younger males without the world seeing what they are doing.

The world will know anyway and the condemnation will ensue.

So how should the U.S. handle Fallujah? It has been the most likely place for Americans to be attacked ever since they took over Iraq, hasn't it? What should they do? This is a very messy situation that our country has gotten itself into. It makes me doubt more and more whether Iraq can ever be anything that even resembles a democracy.

Thanks - I understand your position better now.

Thing is, I was thinking in terms of all sides being shown - not one side nor 'tother - just because I do think that, as I said before, we need to be aware of what it all really means when we make decisions about our position, whom we vote for, etc.

I would find it hard to say when it slips into voyeurism and such, though.

As you know, I am mega squeamish - but I really don't want to hide from these things.

I agree one-sided propaganda about it all is a menace.

Ah, I have an example you might be able to appreciate.

Au once posted a picture of Palestinians holding up the entrails of a lynched "colaborator" as evidence of "Arab civilization" or something.

The qualm is about the facile nature of such tactics. I'm not too squeamish and am already numb to pictures like these (as sad as that is to say).

I see hhobitbob has done his own editing reconsideration and changed the thread title. Thats less objectionable because it somewhat deflates what was originally a statement apparently meant to be from an "incredulous objective observer". I was more ticked at the imagery conjoined with the poor attempt at black humor.

cmon, why the hell do many of us feel that this war serves no purpose? Now we are stuck in a swamp from which we cannot leave lest we spur on civil wars that will yield even more tabloid pictures of broken bodies.

Hmmmm - yes, Craven, I recall that picture.

I understand what you mean - and I appreciate the numb thing.

Damned if I know how to manage it without slipping into crazyness! But I still think we need to see more than the kind of surgical shots engineered in Iraq I, for instance.

Edit - added.

I still keep coming back to Ash saying at one point something like that civilians ought never to be allowed to see the results of war, cos it makes us want to stop them.

I guess I think everyone ought to be really aware of what is happening when people kill in their name - Americans, Aussians, Palestinians, Rwandans and so on.

Tiger by the tail, Farmerman?

Only now it has become the US'/Coalition's problem.......

Maybe tarbaby is a better metaphor?

I don't agree that the pictures are only for shock value. When all we hear on the news are tales of glory and summed up numbers of casualties, we get a false sense of the war. I don't want to see the pictures on TV and I really don't want to look at them here either. But our pampered news casts are the reasons why the war popularity is so high. Let the cameraman do a 360 degree view of a real war zone instead of editing out the gruesome segments and I guarantee you that peoples opinions of the war will change.

I have mixed feelings. It can be overdone. Just show it casually, not in your face like this thread and not pampered like they do on TV. But don't sensor it out completely.