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The results of the siege of Fallujah

 
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 12:48 pm
From Walter's article:
Quote:
Indeed, as the State Department was pressuring Al Jazeera to limit anti-American content, it was offering the station its own officials for interviews. Colin Powell, Donald Rumsfeld, and Condolezza Rice all appeared on Al Jazeera, as did Christopher Ross, a former American ambassador to Syria who speaks relatively fluent Arabic. The Americans were not alone. British Prime Minister Tony Blair also made his case for "dismantling the network of international terrorism" directly to Al Jazeera viewers.

Also:
Quote:
If American officials were to claim that Al Jazeera is against them, their Middle Eastern counterparts likely would reply, "Join the club." According to Yousef Al Shouly, a Palestinian senior producer for Al Jazeera, Western leaders are now absorbing the lesson that Arab heads of state learned over the past five years: "Use Al Jazeera to spread your views; use Al Jazeera to your own benefit." When there is controversy in a country, he says, his station allows both "the government and the opposition to give their point of view. Al Jazeera gives both sides a chance. Al Jazeera has not changed its policy. Governments have changed their policy" to adapt to the network, he says.

Before Al Jazeera began broadcasting in 1996, Arab leaders were accustomed to state-owned media that did not question the status quo. In the choice between pleasing governments or pleasing viewers, Al Jazeera chose the latter. There's hardly an Arab government that the station has not offended. Al Jazeera's staff say the Qatari foreign ministry has received more than 400 complaints.


Frontline did a story on AJ. Let me see if I can find the link.
0 Replies
 
jackie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 01:40 pm
I read Al Jazeera (english) every day, almost. I have seen these photos and more, and they make me feel sick.
But you know what MAKES ME CRY, worse than anything else about war?.... the people who come home (mostly youth, just beginning life), with arms gone, legs and feet gone, muscles in the back or shoulders ruined, elbows shot out...
And did you know Oprah Winfrey had a special last week at the hospitals, showing all of those with a positive determination to use their prosthesis well-- and go on with life?
Those are the painful photos. No matter how much a blood-strewn, tattered body is 'shown'... it is 'just as dead' and has no more pain.

These mutilated victims of war injury, relive their battle every time they pull on their plastic legs, or struggle to reach their mouth, or wait for the surgeries to put enough layers on over the burns, so they will be human looking again... and they will never grow new limbs, or new eyes, or regrow hearing... they will compensate for the loss the best they can--
And one day, they can roll down the halls, by the politicians- who see the wheelchair.... and hear the likes of Ann Coulter ask them... "you ain't really no hero are you? didn't you just get hit ridin' down the road? You really wudden fightin'..!"
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 02:15 pm
I find it odd no one has posted the pictures of the 4 Americans these people killed and then desecrated them by dragging their corpses through the streets and hanging them from a bridge.

It amazing how quickly some forget.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 02:17 pm
Who has forgotten?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 02:43 pm
McGentrix wrote:
I find it odd no one has posted the pictures of the 4 Americans these people killed and then desecrated them by dragging their corpses through the streets and hanging them from a bridge.

It amazing how quickly some forget.


They've been in our tv-news on all channels and on nearly every frontpage of the daily papers - as far as I know, such hasn't happened in the USA.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 03:52 pm
Walter, as I know you are aware, McGentrix is atempting to change the subject from something he finds contrary to his worldview. Let's not let him.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 04:58 pm
hobitbob wrote:
You are aware that CNN, The NY TImes, the Wash Post, and even Penthouse Magazine have had reporters inside the AQ camps for months at a time, aren't you?
After 911? Can you prove it?

I also notice that in your selective highlighting you ignored this:
Quote:
Al-Jazeera said it had withheld the interview because it did not want to be seen as a mouthpiece for Bin Laden.


Sort of invalidates your thesis, no?
No. It proves they are worried about the accurate perception most of the world has of them. They were hiding the fact that they had achieved such close access to Bin Laden, and they were protecting him from further investigation using the tape. And protecting themselves as aiders and abettors.

As for this question:
Quote:
(*Is that what their sermons look like?)

The answer is: what do "Christian sermons" look like? there is no uniform manner of preaching in Islam either. Certainly Fundamentalist ISlam, like Fundamentalist Christianity, teaches hate and intolerance. I find it dissapointing that our administration adheres to such a philosophy. I have always maintained that the far right, and AQ have much in common.
I think you have much more in common with AQ than the far right. You certainly defend them. You don't see the far right doing that.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 05:03 pm
Quote:
After 911? Can you prove it?

Penthouse had someone with him in 2002. I don't have a memebrship to Penthouse.com, and I don't think the article would be there, but it was in the February 2003 issue (I just read it for the articles!). Wink

Quote:
No. It proves they are worried about the accurate perception most of the world has of them. They were hiding the fact that they had achieved such close access to Bin Laden, and they were protecting him from further investigation using the tape. And protecting themselves as aiders and abettors.

No, it instead seems to confirm that you too have embraced the fallacy of American Exceptionalism. Sad

Quote:
I think you have much more in common with AQ than the far right. You certainly defend them. You don't see the far right doing that.

I haven't defended AQ yet. Nice try, but ineffective.
BTW, how does the far right's resemblence to AQ depoend upon their defending them?
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 05:07 pm
Sofia,

I rarely post or link to articles but please read this:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/intl/article/0,9171,1107990315-21973,00.html

Al-Jazeera gets a really bum rap. Lot's of people are shooting the messenger there. It's sad, they are a free press in a land where it has been rare, and are staffed by Arab journalists who've shed tears over having their previous attempts at a free press shut down by the likes of the house of Saud.

Sure they have been a channel for many extreme expressions but that has more to do with their location and the fact that they are a rare Arab press that is free to report what they want.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 05:55 pm
Thank you for the link. It was new information.

But that only means they aren't 100% corrupt. I never said they were. I like what they are doing in the area of openness, women's issues and showing sides of issues the oppressed, mind-controlled masses in the ME haven't been able to get--

Within the bounds of the AJ/Bin Laden discussion, however, I do believe at different times since the build-up, they have shone a favorable spotlight on BL and his cause, and have aided him in his work.

I still am glad for the link.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 06:20 pm
Sofia wrote:
Thank you for the link. It was new information.

But that only means they aren't 100% corrupt. I never said they were. I like what they are doing in the area of openness, women's issues and showing sides of issues the oppressed, mind-controlled masses in the ME haven't been able to get--

Within the bounds of the AJ/Bin Laden discussion, however, I do believe at different times since the build-up, they have shone a favorable spotlight on BL and his cause, and have aided him in his work.

I still am glad for the link.

I find them to be less biased than FOX or CNN.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 06:24 pm
I don't doubt you would.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 06:25 pm
The proper response would seem to be "nyah, nyah, nyah." Rolling Eyes
The sources I trust the most are BBC, Die Welt, Le Monde. the Jordan Times, and the Washington Post. Take from this what you wish.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 06:33 pm
Sofia wrote:

Within the bounds of the AJ/Bin Laden discussion, however, I do believe at different times since the build-up, they have shone a favorable spotlight on BL and his cause, and have aided him in his work.

I still am glad for the link.



Well, I dunno, I think they get a bad rap. If they publish his videos (which are always a big ratings scoops) we criticize them for giving him a platform and the (IMO silly) argument that they may be spreading his messages.

When they withold a video they are blamed for that too.

IMO, they are green journalists enjoying their relevance and that's all I can knock them for. There's always an element of populism to mainstream media (and in the Arab world they are mainstream) and I'm sure there's the subsequent bias but I'd not say they are in bed with anyone except perhaps their audience. And the media has a hard time not pandering to their audience everywhere.

PS that wasn't the link I was looking for, there was a much better piece on them that I once read, telling of the actual individuals involved and how hard they tried to start a free Arab press, getting attacked by the fundamentalists and governments.

They have a long way to go, but IMO Al-Jazeera represents a part of the Arab world we want to see more of. Free press is essential to democracy and there's a huge shortage of free press over there.

I personally don't like some of the tabloid-style they have, but it's much better than state-controlled media and IMO Americans need to remember that more than content they publish. IMO, supporting free press in the Arab world could be a powerful way to bring about change.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 06:39 pm
The article did indeed make the type of impression you speak of above.

It does seem -oddly, and as I see you allude to above- that, except for my opinion of how they deal with BL, they are pushing for the same thing we are in the ME--a opposing voice to the harsh, monopolistic, fundy Islam voice.

It would aid democracy.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 06:57 pm
That is interesting -I mean the "should have given info about where Bin-Laden was" thing (I have a lot of time for Al-Jazeera - and I agree that their survival is very important for the ME) - what are the ethics of western journalism re interviewing people accused of a crime in hiding? I know journalists here, and in the US, have gone to prison for protecting their sources - and I am sure I have seen interviews of people in hiding....

(Of course, it is quite possible, also, that the film crew did not - except in the roughest terms - where he was.)

Was CNN lambasted for showing the film? ie accused of supporting Bin Laden - or would that only happen to an Arab newsagency? All his "publicity" videos and audios have been shown by western media, as far as I know - well, I guess I wouldn't know if they hadn't been, hmmmmm?
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 07:11 pm
dlowan wrote:
That is interesting -I mean the "should have given info about where Bin-Laden was" thing (I have a lot of time for Al-Jazeera - and I agree that their survival is very important for the ME) - what are the ethics of western journalism re interviewing people accused of a crime in hiding? I know journalists here, and in the US, have gone to prison for protecting their sources - and I am sure I have seen interviews of people in hiding....

Ask Robert Novak.......
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 07:13 pm
I think I'll bring some pieces on AJ that may lend to the discussion.
<an excerpt>

"We didn't want them to help bin Laden and his merry band of freaks," the official said.

Al-Jazeera conducted its exclusive October interview with bin Laden, but declined to air it. Nearly two months after the taping, the network said the interview did not meet its standards and was not newsworthy: It initially had denied the interview occurred. (*)

CNN's decision to air some of the bin Laden interview outraged Al-Jazeera and resulted in the network cutting its ties with CNN.

More than two weeks following the Cheney meeting, Al-Jazeera released two bin Laden tapes: one on November 3 in which bin Laden lashed out at the United States and United Nations, and another tape on December 26 in which he called the September 11 attacks on the United States "blessed terror" and accused the West of hating Islam.
(...)
"We will work to continue this battle, God permitting, until victory or until we meet God," bin Laden told the Kabul reporter for the Qatar-based network.

"I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed," (**)bin Laden said as the U.S. war on terrorism raged in Afghanistan. "The U.S. government will lead the American people in and the West in general into an unbearable hell and a choking life."

-- CNN Senior White House Correspondent John King contributed to this report
----------------
1) Why would a news org lie about whether or not they'd conducted an interview?
2) I think it is to protect him from the world knowing Bush was correct in his statement that Bin Laden strives to strip us of our freedoms, as quoted here (**).
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 07:23 pm
Sofia wrote:

1) Why would a news org lie about whether or not they'd conducted an interview?

Ask Robert Novak, or Jayson Blair.


Quote:
2) I think it is to protect him from the world knowing Bush was correct in his statement that Bin Laden strives to strip us of our freedoms, as quoted here (**).

OBL opposes anyone who doesn't follow his rigid model of propriety, so in a waty you are right, however, please tell me you don't buy the "people hate America becasue they hate freedom" line of BS.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 07:25 pm
Novak and Jayson Blair aren't news orgs.

#2)--No. Plenty of free people hate the US.
0 Replies
 
 

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