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I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

 
 
igm
 
  1  
Mon 9 Sep, 2013 03:02 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Okay...and I suspect you really do not KNOW something about the true nature of REALITY.


You can suspect that someone who says they know they are in love, are not in love, even when they say they know they are. What grounds could you put forward to justify you suspicion? There aren't any. What grounds do you have to suspect that I don't know something about the true nature of reality? Suspicion is more than a guess and it is emotive, it implies the person who says they know... may be lying ...even though you have no evidence to make that accusation.

igm
 
  1  
Mon 9 Sep, 2013 03:10 pm
@igm,
Amended my last post.

Also:

More unsubstantiated emotive language...

Frank Apisa wrote:

Igm...with all the respect in the universe...I suspect that is nonsense.

0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Mon 9 Sep, 2013 03:23 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Yup...and I have Christians telling me all the time that there is a path to understanding the true nature of REALITY...but that I have to love GOD and Jesus...and ask them to explain it to me.


You have Christians telling you this all the time? Show me where they have a path that leads to that goal? More emotional rhetoric with no substance. My guess is you have never heard a Christian say that.

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 9 Sep, 2013 03:47 pm
@igm,
igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Okay...and I suspect you really do not KNOW something about the true nature of REALITY.


You can suspect that someone who says they know they are in love, are not in love, even when they say they know they are. What grounds could you put forward to justify you suspicion? There aren't any. What grounds do you have to suspect that I don't know something about the true nature of reality? Suspicion is more than a guess and it is emotive, it implies the person who says they know... may be lying ...even though you have no evidence to make that accusation.




If you want to talk about love...talk about love with someone else.

I am talking about the ture nature of REALITY.
IRFRANK
 
  1  
Mon 9 Sep, 2013 04:48 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
NO...the next statement would not be "prove it"...and I suspect I use the words "prove it" less than anybody on this forum. I hardly ever use them.


I would agree. Those are not your words. But my expectations would be the same request, in more words. So yes, I paraphrased.

I would not call you a hypocrite. I said, I understand Vikkor's meaning with that term. Your use of the phrase, 'and I suspect other's beliefs are guesses ' is dismissive. You don't KNOW their beliefs are guesses. I know you used the words suspect, but the meaning is there. I would say you are very careful with your choice of words. That is a compliment.

Quote:
I do not ever dismiss other people's beliefs. I simply accept them as guesses that are being disguised.


That is dismissive, by my understanding.


Quote:
Do you, Frank, KNOW the true nature of the REALITY of existence?


I have my own understanding of it. 'IT' is what's right in front of me. As I have explained as well as I can in other posts. JL and IGM have provided much better explanations. As IGM noted, I don't expect you to accept that at face value. I didn't at first. It took some reading and study and meditation to grasp the idea of awareness. I am still working on it and always will.

Quote:
If not...why not simply acknowledge that you do not.


I acknowledge that I do not have sufficient KNOWledge to explain the true nature of REALITY here.

You'll have to accept the difference between my understanding or awareness and KNOW.




Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Mon 9 Sep, 2013 07:38 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank said- "I have Christians telling me all the time that there is a path to understanding the true nature of REALITY.."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any Christian who claims to know what 'Reality' is is skating on thin ice.
Even Jesus hinted that Reality was beyond our understanding - "You hardly believe me when I tell you earthly things, so how would you believe me if I told you heavenly things?" (John 3:12),
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Tue 10 Sep, 2013 12:02 am
@IRFRANK,
I would like to point out that I have never called Frank a hypocrite...each time it has been 'that is hypocritical' or similar...referring to the behaviour in a specific area.

Nor is Franks value of 'I do not know the true nature of reality' a bad value - there is much merit to such a stance. The issue is that it has been taken to the extreme (which I find to be unworkable, but that's a different issue)...and therefore because it is he that is taking it to the extreme, and demanding the same of others - he should acknowledge where he is making many guesses presented as knowledge...about reality (which encompasses everything, including peoples feelings, logic, what an interpretation of another persons writing means, etc)...but he doesn't. Hence the hypocritical comments.

Hypocrisy isn't a pleasent accusation, but it's the most accurate where you demand a value of others that you yourself break.
vikorr
 
  1  
Tue 10 Sep, 2013 01:04 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Then do so.

Direct quotes, please.

Probably a truncated list...the extremism is seen in the total, rather than in an individual entry. Of course, some entries cross the category boundaries I made

STATEMENTS OF YOUR NOT GUESSING
I acknowledge on these kinds of questions....I DO NOT KNOW. (And that I am not willing to make guesses.) http://able2know.org/topic/220485-14#post-5424310

Regarding the "true nature of REALITY and existence", igm, I simply do not know what it is. Make no further mistakes about that...

…I do not know and am not willing to guess anything must be included or excluded. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-8#post-5420109

I do not do "believing", JL http://able2know.org/topic/220485-18#post-5431948

CRITICISMS OF OTHERS ‘BLIND GUESSES’

Your blind guesses about the REALITY of existence are every bit as reasonable as the Buddha's blind guesses.

And your guesses about his guesses are also. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-13#post-5423303

You KNOW it is a "dream world" how?

You KNOW the Buddha "shows us how to wake up from the dream" how?

Or are you simply asserting beliefs (guesses about the reality)? http://able2know.org/topic/220485-13#post-5424251<br />C'mon.

How do you know the "teachings" of the Buddha have any validity?http://able2know.org/topic/220485-13#post-5424271

Buddhism is a belief system which has adherents just as willing to be blind to their guessing as any other belief system. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-13#post-5424289

I suspect "the truth" will set you free. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-16#post-5429260

Too bad, JL...that you deprive yourself of the truth...and of the strength to acknowledge that you do not know the things you truly do not know.http://able2know.org/topic/220485-18#post-5431800

STATEMENTS THAT YOU DON”T KNOW THE TRUE NATURE OF REALITY
I DO NOT KNOW that what I experience is REALITY. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-19#post-5432693

I freely acknowledge that I do not know the things I do not know. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-14#post-5424367

I have no idea whatsoever about the true nature of REALITY http://able2know.org/topic/220485-8#post-5420039

I DO NOT KNOW WHAT REALITY is...and I am acknowledging that I do not know.http://able2know.org/topic/220485-16#post-5428837

I do not know what the true nature of REALITY is http://able2know.org/topic/220485-17#post-5429398

DEMANDS OF OTHERS

I want him to convince me that he is doing something other than guessing about the true nature of REALITY. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-17#post-5430306

Do you have any evidence that he was able to teach others how to end suffering? If “yes”, please share what you have. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-2#post-5415732.

I am also suggesting that your acceptance of the enlightenment of the Buddha and of his ability to suggest ways for you (igm) to attain it also…is nothing but pure belief (guesswork.) http://able2know.org/topic/220485-6#post-5417499

If "proof" is what igm is looking for...I'd like to see "proof" that the Buddha taught there is no self or no soul.

Proof! http://able2know.org/topic/220485-11#post-5421378

If not...tell us how you KNOW any of that. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-16#post-5429148

Show me that YOU are experiencing REALITY first hand. In fact, just convince me that when you say you are experiencing REALITY first hand...you are doing something other than guessing at what REALITY actually IS...and suggesting (gratuitously) that you are experiencing it.
Really. And you KNOW this how? http://able2know.org/topic/220485-18#post-5431565

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 10 Sep, 2013 04:12 am
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

I would like to point out that I have never called Frank a hypocrite...each time it has been 'that is hypocritical' or similar...referring to the behaviour in a specific area.

Nor is Franks value of 'I do not know the true nature of reality' a bad value - there is much merit to such a stance. The issue is that it has been taken to the extreme (which I find to be unworkable, but that's a different issue)...and therefore because it is he that is taking it to the extreme, and demanding the same of others - he should acknowledge where he is making many guesses presented as knowledge...about reality (which encompasses everything, including peoples feelings, logic, what an interpretation of another persons writing means, etc)...but he doesn't. Hence the hypocritical comments.

Hypocrisy isn't a pleasent accusation, but it's the most accurate where you demand a value of others that you yourself break.


So...on several occasions Vikorr has said that I am being hypocritical...or "that is hypocritical"...and he is saying now that he never called me a hypocrite.

That is like saying that a guy steals all sorts of things all the time...but I never called him a theif.

What is it with you, Vikorr?

You charged the "hypocritical" thing several times...and I tried to let it go...but you insisted.

I still have not seen a single instance of hypocrisy in what I have written following my comment: I do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

What specifically have I said that shows hypocrisy because of that statement...or my subsequent statements. Give an actual quote...and cite where it comes from.

I HAVE NOT BEEN HYPOCRITICAL.

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 10 Sep, 2013 04:21 am
@IRFRANK,
IRFRANK wrote:

Quote:
NO...the next statement would not be "prove it"...and I suspect I use the words "prove it" less than anybody on this forum. I hardly ever use them.


I would agree. Those are not your words. But my expectations would be the same request, in more words. So yes, I paraphrased.

I would not call you a hypocrite. I said, I understand Vikkor's meaning with that term. Your use of the phrase, 'and I suspect other's beliefs are guesses ' is dismissive. You don't KNOW their beliefs are guesses. I know you used the words suspect, but the meaning is there. I would say you are very careful with your choice of words. That is a compliment.

Quote:
I do not ever dismiss other people's beliefs. I simply accept them as guesses that are being disguised.


That is dismissive, by my understanding.


Quote:
Do you, Frank, KNOW the true nature of the REALITY of existence?


I have my own understanding of it. 'IT' is what's right in front of me. As I have explained as well as I can in other posts. JL and IGM have provided much better explanations. As IGM noted, I don't expect you to accept that at face value. I didn't at first. It took some reading and study and meditation to grasp the idea of awareness. I am still working on it and always will.

Quote:
If not...why not simply acknowledge that you do not.


I acknowledge that I do not have sufficient KNOWledge to explain the true nature of REALITY here.

You'll have to accept the difference between my understanding or awareness and KNOW.







Frank...in all respect and as calmly as I can possibly get, allow me to ask you this in all seriousness.

If someone says something to me that I suspect is a guess about REALITY...how else can I respond except to say that it appears to me to be a guess about REALITY?

I have to say that in order to respond.

And if someone calls that guess a "belief"...I have to acknowledge that I consider the word "belief" to be a disguise for "guess."

Why is that "dismissive?"

Should I simply accept the assertions that I suspect to be guesses?

You certainly are free to suppose that what you sense IS REALITY...but I am unwilling to do so. All of what I suppose to be what I am sensing...MAY BE AN ILLUSION. I do not even know that you actually exist...or any of the universe either. The thing I call "my mind" may be all that exits.

How you are able to dismiss all that for yourself is beyond me.

You, and igm, and the Buddhists here all seem to "have a sense" of REALITY that you "cannot explain."

I suspect that is because you actually do not have that sense of REALITY...you simply are making guesses about REALITY...and calling them "a sense of REALITY."

You MAY BE deluding yourself...which is all I am suggesting; that you MAY BE deluding yourself.

When a Christian tells me "I KNOW THERE IS A GOD...AND I KNOW THAT GOD LOVES ME"...the only sensible thing I can do is to suppose the person MAY BE deluding him/herself...and unable to acknowledge it.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 10 Sep, 2013 04:26 am
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Then do so.

Direct quotes, please.

Probably a truncated list...the extremism is seen in the total, rather than in an individual entry. Of course, some entries cross the category boundaries I made

STATEMENTS OF YOUR NOT GUESSING
I acknowledge on these kinds of questions....I DO NOT KNOW. (And that I am not willing to make guesses.) http://able2know.org/topic/220485-14#post-5424310

Regarding the "true nature of REALITY and existence", igm, I simply do not know what it is. Make no further mistakes about that...

…I do not know and am not willing to guess anything must be included or excluded. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-8#post-5420109

I do not do "believing", JL http://able2know.org/topic/220485-18#post-5431948

CRITICISMS OF OTHERS ‘BLIND GUESSES’

Your blind guesses about the REALITY of existence are every bit as reasonable as the Buddha's blind guesses.

And your guesses about his guesses are also. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-13#post-5423303

You KNOW it is a "dream world" how?

You KNOW the Buddha "shows us how to wake up from the dream" how?

Or are you simply asserting beliefs (guesses about the reality)? http://able2know.org/topic/220485-13#post-5424251<br />C'mon.

How do you know the "teachings" of the Buddha have any validity?http://able2know.org/topic/220485-13#post-5424271

Buddhism is a belief system which has adherents just as willing to be blind to their guessing as any other belief system. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-13#post-5424289

I suspect "the truth" will set you free. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-16#post-5429260

Too bad, JL...that you deprive yourself of the truth...and of the strength to acknowledge that you do not know the things you truly do not know.http://able2know.org/topic/220485-18#post-5431800

STATEMENTS THAT YOU DON”T KNOW THE TRUE NATURE OF REALITY
I DO NOT KNOW that what I experience is REALITY. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-19#post-5432693

I freely acknowledge that I do not know the things I do not know. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-14#post-5424367

I have no idea whatsoever about the true nature of REALITY http://able2know.org/topic/220485-8#post-5420039

I DO NOT KNOW WHAT REALITY is...and I am acknowledging that I do not know.http://able2know.org/topic/220485-16#post-5428837

I do not know what the true nature of REALITY is http://able2know.org/topic/220485-17#post-5429398

DEMANDS OF OTHERS

I want him to convince me that he is doing something other than guessing about the true nature of REALITY. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-17#post-5430306

Do you have any evidence that he was able to teach others how to end suffering? If “yes”, please share what you have. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-2#post-5415732.

I am also suggesting that your acceptance of the enlightenment of the Buddha and of his ability to suggest ways for you (igm) to attain it also…is nothing but pure belief (guesswork.) http://able2know.org/topic/220485-6#post-5417499

If "proof" is what igm is looking for...I'd like to see "proof" that the Buddha taught there is no self or no soul.

Proof! http://able2know.org/topic/220485-11#post-5421378

If not...tell us how you KNOW any of that. http://able2know.org/topic/220485-16#post-5429148

Show me that YOU are experiencing REALITY first hand. In fact, just convince me that when you say you are experiencing REALITY first hand...you are doing something other than guessing at what REALITY actually IS...and suggesting (gratuitously) that you are experiencing it.
Really. And you KNOW this how? http://able2know.org/topic/220485-18#post-5431565




Vikorr...I have read this list through completely...and there is not one word that I find in any way hypocritical.

Pick out the one instance you think most proves your point...and I will discuss it with you for as long as it takes to resolve it.

There is absolutely no hypocrisy in any of this.

I do not know.

I suspect others do not know.

When someone suggests they do know (or have a sense of it)...I ask for specifics.

What in the name of REALITY is it in all of that...that you see as hypocrisy?

In your world, am I not allowed to discuss from my perspective.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 10 Sep, 2013 04:27 am
@Frank Apisa,
BY THE WAY...PUTTING THAT LIST TOGETHER WAS A HELL OF A LOT OF WORK ON YOUR PART...

...AND I ACKNOWLEDGE YOU FOR IT!


But my response holds.
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Tue 10 Sep, 2013 05:28 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Okay...and I suspect you really do not KNOW something about the true nature of REALITY.


You can suspect that someone who says they know they are in love, are not in love, even when they say they know they are. What grounds could you put forward to justify you suspicion? There aren't any. What grounds do you have to suspect that I don't know something about the true nature of reality? Suspicion is more than a guess and it is emotive, it implies the person who says they know... may be lying ...even though you have no evidence to make that accusation.



If you want to talk about love...talk about love with someone else.

I am talking about the ture nature of REALITY.



I was talking about it and you've ignored it. You have to have grounds for your suspicion and you've never given any logical reason for your suspicion. Try to stop being so dismissive and answer a question with some logical reasoning Frank... why do you have 'suspicion' and not just say, 'I guess you are wrong but I have no reasons for that guess'.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 10 Sep, 2013 05:43 am
@igm,
igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Okay...and I suspect you really do not KNOW something about the true nature of REALITY.


You can suspect that someone who says they know they are in love, are not in love, even when they say they know they are. What grounds could you put forward to justify you suspicion? There aren't any. What grounds do you have to suspect that I don't know something about the true nature of reality? Suspicion is more than a guess and it is emotive, it implies the person who says they know... may be lying ...even though you have no evidence to make that accusation.



If you want to talk about love...talk about love with someone else.

I am talking about the ture nature of REALITY.



I was talking about it and you've ignored it. You have to have grounds for your suspicion and you've never given any logical reason for your suspicion. Try to stop being so dismissive and answer a question with some logical reasoning Frank... why do you have 'suspicion' and not just say, 'I guess you are wrong but I have no reasons for that guess'.




My "grounds" have been (AND STILL ARE) that I see no way of actually KNOWING anything about the true nature of REALITY...and that every time someone suggests they KNOW something about it, they are unable to explain it...and REFUSE to answer questions about "How do you know you are not deluding yourself?"

YES I AM GUESSING YOU DO NOT KNOW THE TRUE NATURE OF REALITY,

That is what any reasonable person would get when I say "I suspect."

IT IS A GUESS.

So tell me why I should guess the other way...why I should guess that despite the fact that the greatest minds ever to exist on this planet have not been able to come up with REALITY...I should suspect or guess that you have, igm?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 10 Sep, 2013 05:46 am
Is there anyone here who KNOWS the true nature of the REALITY of existence?

I acknowledge that I do not.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 10 Sep, 2013 05:49 am
@Frank Apisa,
BY THE WAY, igm...

...I HAVE NEVER SAID YOU ARE WRONG IN YOUR GUESSES.

You may be correct.

You may be wrong.

For all I know...you may be both correct and wrong.

So you really ought not to say that I have said your guesses are wrong.

How on earth would I know they are wrong?
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Tue 10 Sep, 2013 05:51 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

YES I AM GUESSING YOU DO NOT KNOW THE TRUE NATURE OF REALITY,

That is what any reasonable person would get when I say "I suspect."

IT IS A GUESS.


Frank, 'I suspect you' and 'I don't know' are not the same and a reasonable person would agree they are not the same.

I'm glad you have admitted that you are blind guessing that I don't know something about the true nature of reality.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 10 Sep, 2013 05:54 am
@igm,
igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

YES I AM GUESSING YOU DO NOT KNOW THE TRUE NATURE OF REALITY,

That is what any reasonable person would get when I say "I suspect."

IT IS A GUESS.


Frank, 'I suspect you' and 'I don't know' are not the same and a reasonable person would agree they are not the same.

I'm glad you have admitted that you are blind guessing that I don't know something about the true nature of reality.




I have done that many times already, igm. When I say I suspect you do not know...that indicates that I do not KNOW. So stop playing games with this.

If you KNOW what the REALITY is...if you KNOW anything about the true nature of REALITY...

...share it with us...

...AND SHARE HOW YOU KNOW YOU ARE NOT DELUDING YOURSELF.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 10 Sep, 2013 05:56 am
ANYONE...

...other than whatever the REALITY IS...is...

...name anything else that you know for certain about the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

I am not asking for guesses.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 10 Sep, 2013 05:58 am
Gotta go now for an endoscopy. See ya when I get back. Hope I am not groggy from the anesthesia (or any more groggy than I am usually.)
0 Replies
 
 

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