I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

@neologist,

Frank, take and observe the sensations of taking a breath. That's reality and you are aware of it. If you think all knowledge is purely intellectual ideas coded in language then I agree: we are certain of very little. If you think knowledge is also immediate experience then you know it, but resist it for some reason.

1 Reply

My take on Buddha is that he was a decent open-minded human being who made good efforts to discover the Truth, but the bottom line remains that he was just a man giving us his own ideas, guesses and hunches.
Some of his quotes puzzle me such as-
"He who loves 50 people has 50 woes; he who loves no one has no woes.", so is he telling us not to love anybody?

And these quotes-
"No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path"......"Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others" imply that we should ignore all the great prophets, spiritual writers and philosophers etc, is that right?

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Frank, take and observe the sensations of taking a breath. That's reality and you are aware of it. If you think all knowledge is purely intellectual ideas coded in language then I agree: we are certain of very little. If you think knowledge is also immediate experience then you know it, but resist it for some reason.

Rather self-serving comment, JL.

I DO NOT KNOW that what I experience is REALITY.

I suspect you don't either.

But I acknowledge it.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

But, how do you know where they went?

1 Reply

@IRFRANK,

IRFRANK wrote:

But, how do you know where they went?

Christ, Frank...are we really going to play the definition game?

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

I'll take the first one. It depends on how you define love. If you love 50 people as an attachment, possessive love, then yes, 50 woes. Loving others unconditionally, without attachment is what to seek.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

I am asking, how do you know where to go look for your golf ball. Simple question.

And yes, your definition of KNOW is at the heart of our differences.

1 Reply

@IRFRANK,

IRFRANK wrote:

I am asking, how do you know where to go look for your golf ball. Simple question.

A member of my foursome stands behind the person hitting...and tells the hitter where the ball is. In my case, since I am known as Fairway Frank...I simply walk down the fairway until I come to my ball. One can see a ball on a fairway from a considerable distance.

Quote:

And yes, your definition of KNOW is at the heart of our differences.

So...what do you suppose my definition of "know" is...and how does it differ from your definition?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank, you say that what I have just said is self-serving. Everything we say is in a sense "self-serving", even if we do not believe in the "self" as an ultimate agent-of-action.
You say that you do not know what you experience is reality. But you once agree with me that even a mirage is real--a real mirage.
IRFrank is right. What we are having trouble with is your definition of reality. Surely you consider your experience to be real, perhaps not ultimate reality in a philosophical sense, but as least as real as a mirage.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

vikorr wrote:

Believing may be the wrong word. Belief is an attachment to a concept. You value 'not knowing' and in valuing it, you are attached to that concept...so in the end,your values existence fits into the intent/meaning of JL's 'I used to believe as you do'.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Nonsense.

C'mon Frank, admit it - your belief that it is nonsense is just a guess.

Show me the evidence that it is nonsense.

You certainly can't know the true nature of reality, so you certainly can't say it's nonsense.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is not this response of yours hypocritical?

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Frank, you say that what I have just said is self-serving. Everything we say is in a sense "self-serving", even if we do not believe in the "self" as an ultimate agent-of-action.

Yours was self-serving to further your argument.

Quote:

You say that you do not know what you experience is reality.

I do not know the true nature of REALITY...and I do not know that what I sense is REALITY.

I suspect you do not either.

Now...for the sake of living in this world...I certainly am willing to accept that I "know" things like "The name on my birth certificate is Frank Apisa"..."I am sitting in my den at my computer keyboard"..."I had to leave the golf course today because of a severe case of diarrhea."

I am not saying that I know nothing, even recognizing that some of the items I say I "know" may be other than what I think they are.

Quote:

But you once agree with me that even a mirage is real--a real mirage.

Okay.

Quote:

IRFrank is right.

Actually, no he isn't. And neither are you.

Quote:

What we are having trouble with is your definition of reality.

I do not think so. I think REALITY is whatever is. You seem to think you KNOW what it is...or what it isn't.

I am merely acknowledging that I do not know what it is.

Quote:

Surely you consider your experience to be real, perhaps not ultimate reality in a philosophical sense, but as least as real as a mirage.

For living life...I am willing to acknowledge some "knowing." But to suppose that leads to "You KNOW what the REALITY of existence is...is absurd."

0 Replies

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

vikorr wrote:
Believing may be the wrong word. Belief is an attachment to a concept. You value 'not knowing' and in valuing it, you are attached to that concept...so in the end,your values existence fits into the intent/meaning of JL's 'I used to believe as you do'.

Frank Apisa wrote:
Nonsense.

C'mon Frank, admit it - your belief that it is nonsense is just a guess.

Show me the evidence that it is nonsense.

You certainly can't know the true nature of reality, so you certainly can't say it's nonsense.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is not this response of yours hypocritical?

Whatever.

The bottom line is that I do not KNOW the true nature of REALITY.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

So now we turn in the direction of epistemology. Ever walked out into the fairway and not find it? My point is that KNOW is not absolute. You seem to hold KNOW to a very high standard, which is OK of course. Disregarding information that you cannot KNOW to be true can eliminate useful information. Of course we make this evaluation all the time and I can't say yours is wrong. We all make our choices.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

So you think your arguments are unassailable? If that were true you wouldn't have diarrahea. And, I wonder, how can you know if a theoretical guess is correct without turning it into knowledge?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Whatever.

The bottom line is that I do not KNOW the true nature of REALITY.

How, interesting...you come here arguing black and blue against other peoples beliefs not being knowledge, not being knowable, and being guesses...

...and can't hold yourself to the same standard you set for others.

If you truly believed your beliefs were just guesses, then you wouldn't make absolute statements (like 'nonsense')...

...it obviously isn't nonsense, as the person who's question I was explaining (JL's) actually agreed with my interpretation.

...but obviously to you, who can't tell if it's real or not, and can only guess...know the absolute...that it's nonsense.

Holding dearly to your 'guess' as reality is completely against everything you've been arguing for this entire thread.

Holding to this makes your position hypocritical, and untenable.

1 Reply

Frank, JL, Vikorr…I do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence. Not an inkling.

If you guys think you do…fine.

If you have to disparage the fact that I am acknowledging that I do not know something like the true nature of REALITY in order to feel comfortable…then you have serious problems.

The greatest minds that have ever existed have toiled with this problem…and I do not know of anyone who has come up with a definitive description of REALITY…except those people (like some of you) who feel their guesses are close enough to knowledge to tout as actual knowledge.

Live with it…but if you discuss it here…I’ll have my say.

1 Reply

@IRFRANK,

IRFRANK wrote:

So now we turn in the direction of epistemology. Ever walked out into the fairway and not find it? My point is that KNOW is not absolute. You seem to hold KNOW to a very high standard, which is OK of course. Disregarding information that you cannot KNOW to be true can eliminate useful information. Of course we make this evaluation all the time and I can't say yours is wrong. We all make our choices.

If you think the question of the true nature of REALITY is the same as not finding an errantly hit golf ball, Frank...you really shouldn't be in this discussion.

0 Replies

@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

So you think your arguments are unassailable? If that were true you wouldn't have diarrahea. And, I wonder, how can you know if a theoretical guess is correct without turning it into knowledge?

I do not know the true nature of reality...IS UNASSAILABLE...diarrhea or not.

Can you possibly get any more petty than this last comment of yours?

0 Replies

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Quote:
Whatever.

The bottom line is that I do not KNOW the true nature of REALITY.
How, interesting...you come here arguing black and blue against other peoples beliefs not being knowledge, not being knowable, and being guesses...

...and can't hold yourself to the same standard you set for others.

I hold myself to a higher standard than I do others.

Quote:

If you truly believed your beliefs were just guesses, then you wouldn't make absolute statements (like 'nonsense')...

I do not "believe" anything, Vikorr. Try to get that through you head. And the comment "nonsense" was appropriate...and reasonably delivered.

Quote:

..it obviously isn't nonsense, as the person who's question I was explaining (JL's) actually agreed with my interpretation.

Oh...so JL cannot agree with nonsense. I'd love to see you defend that piece of intellectual lint.

Quote:

...but obviously to you, who can't tell if it's real or not, and can only guess...know the absolute...that it's nonsense.

Not sure what you were trying to mumble here, V, but it didn't work.

Quote:

Holding dearly to your 'guess' as reality is completely against everything you've been arguing for this entire thread.

What "guess" have I made? I do not know the true nature of REALITY.

Quote:

Holding to this makes your position hypocritical, and untenable.

Well...if you want to create a straw man and then tell me that it defeats my case...I guess there is nothing I can do except call to your attention that doing so is very low class.

1 Reply

It's far better to say one is going to attempt to understand the true nature of reality, than to say I don't understand the true nature of reality and be satisfied with that. Why? If something as important and worthwhile is attempted, then if it is possible, it will be attained. To give up with an 'I don't know the true nature of reality.'... seems foolish.

1 Reply

I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know