I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

WAIT, I feel a stunning theory coming on! -
We all live in a "Dreamworld", and Jesus was a Master of the Art of Dream Manipulation, which would explain how he was able to bend "reality" to produce what people called "miracles".. Smile

"You can be in my dream if i can be in your dream" -Bob Dylan
"We are such stuff as dreams are made on" -The Tempest
"Strawberry Fields, nothing is real" - The Beatles
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one'' -Einstein
"What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes" (Bible, James 4:14)
"Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?"- Morpheus in The Matrix

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

I think perhaps Frank that you think 'reality' is only about the large things like 'does God exist'...reality goes down to the microscopic, and then to the quantum...what people feel and experience is part of reality. You are taking guesses at such (and presenting them as knowledge), and by doing so, you are breaking your own dearly held rule.

Think it's illogical all you like - your position and thoughts on this subject are hypocritical.

I am not a hypocrite. And I am not taking guesses as such and presenting them as knowledge.

Try to keep up.

0 Replies

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Quote:
I do not understand why so many people get as upset as some of you with another person acknowledging that he does not know the true nature of REALITY.

another guess at reality, presented as knowledge...

...an acknowledgement of guessing would presented similar to 'I don't understand why so many people seem to get upset'

You are very poor at expressing what you are trying to express.

Try a sentence that actually says what you mean to say...rather than hinting at what you are trying to say.

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Miracles were not an unusual occurance in Jesus' time. Many people wandered the land and performed them like an occupation. At least that's what the writings say.

1 Reply

@IRFRANK,

IRFrank said-"Miracles were not an unusual occurance in Jesus' time. Many people wandered the land and performed them like an occupation. At least that's what the writings say"
--------------------------------------------------------------------

What writings? Sure there may have been David Blaine-types going round pulling bunnies out of hats, but how did JC regularly beat the pants off them?

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

The same writings the bible is based on. Google it.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

I note that you haven't attempted to explain what you find wrong with any of my posts regarding me saying you are displaying hypocritical behaviour (other than disagreeing point blank - which is not an explanation)

Quote:

what people feel and experience is part of reality. You are taking guesses at such (and presenting them as knowledge), and by doing so, you are breaking your own dearly held rule.

This is a fairly understandable post. It is of course, posted in the context of this thread (I likely didn't need to say this, but just in case). Perhaps you could actually articulate what you find to be wrong with it.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

I note that you haven't attempted to explain what you find wrong with any of my posts regarding me saying you are displaying hypocritical behaviour (other than disagreeing point blank - which is not an explanation)

Quote:
what people feel and experience is part of reality. You are taking guesses at such (and presenting them as knowledge), and by doing so, you are breaking your own dearly held rule.
This is a fairly understandable post. It is of course, posted in the context of this thread (I likely didn't need to say this, but just in case). Perhaps you could actually articulate what you find to be wrong with it.

If it makes you happy or gives you satisfaction to think of me as a hypocrite...or as displaying hypocritical behavior, Vikorr...do so. I have no problem with that.

All I am going to do is to say that I am not a hypocrite...I am not going to debate that with you in order to increase your excitement.

I have stated flatly that I do not know the true natue of the REALITY of existence.

If you have something to say about that...let's discuss it.

If you are saying that because I am saying that...in order for you to consider me anything but a hypocrite I must say that I know nothing about anything...or that I cannot make guesses...then let's just have a laugh about that.

Okay?

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank and JL...since you two are being so quiet on this issue...I will ask you directly:

Do I appear to be a hypocrite to you two? We've discussed this issue many, many times over the years. Do you agree with Vikorr that I am a hypocrite on this?

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

If you are saying that because I am saying that...in order for you to consider me anything but a hypocrite I must say that I know nothing about anything...or that I cannot make guesses...then let's just have a laugh about that.

I could post for you around 20 times where you asked for people to admit that they make guesses about reality, and present them as fact / knowledge.

That is what makes your statements hypocritical...because you are going directly against what you are asking of other people - against the principle you claim to uphold.

If you didn't demand it of other people, nor claim you truly believed in 'not knowing reality', then it would be perfectly fine, and normal to make such guesses.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Frank and JL...since you two are being so quiet on this issue...I will ask you directly:

Do I appear to be a hypocrite to you two?

I'm not sure how you can ask this, considering your response below, it would appear that you think JL's responses can be suspect...or is only the responses that don't agree with you that are suspect?

vikorr wrote:

..it obviously isn't nonsense, as the person who's question I was explaining (JL's) actually agreed with my interpretation

Frank Apisa wrote:

Oh...so JL cannot agree with nonsense. I'd love to see you defend that piece of intellectual lint.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Well, since you ask. Hypocrite is a strong word, but I understand Vikkor's meaning. You are very strong in your 'don't know' stance, which is fine when describing your own conclusions. You then transfer that position to others and simply dismiss their thoughts as nonsense. Since you don't know, no one else can know either. Maybe you didn't say those exact words, but that was the meaning. You state their understanding is only a guess. Well, isn't your don't know statement only a guess? All this does revert to the epistemological arguments of what knowledge is and I doubt we will resolve that question.

I've thought JL did a very good job of describing my understanding of reality. Reality is what is right in front of you. It is what you are experiencing at the moment. Nothing more, nothing less. I try to maintain that awareness. Can I prove that to you in terms you accept? Probably not, but that doesn't make my understanding nonsense. And I think I do know that. It's more than a guess. I would add that meditation has helped me maintain my awareness by teaching me how to ignore the noise and confusion that disturbs understanding. This is also something I know. You can call that an illusion, but you don't know that. I think that considering whether or not it is an illusion is the noise and confusion I mentioned.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Quote:
If you are saying that because I am saying that...in order for you to consider me anything but a hypocrite I must say that I know nothing about anything...or that I cannot make guesses...then let's just have a laugh about that.
I could post for you around 20 times where you asked for people to admit that they make guesses about reality, and present them as fact / knowledge.

That is what makes your statements hypocritical...because you are going directly against what you are asking of other people - against the principle you claim to uphold.

If you didn't demand it of other people, nor claim you truly believed in 'not knowing reality', then it would be perfectly fine, and normal to make such guesses.

Then do so.

Direct quotes, please.

1 Reply

@IRFRANK,

IRFRANK wrote:

Well, since you ask. Hypocrite is a strong word, but I understand Vikkor's meaning. You are very strong in your 'don't know' stance, which is fine when describing your own conclusions. You then transfer that position to others and simply dismiss their thoughts as nonsense. Since you don't know, no one else can know either. Maybe you didn't say those exact words, but that was the meaning. You state their understanding is only a guess. Well, isn't your don't know statement only a guess? All this does revert to the epistemological arguments of what knowledge is and I doubt we will resolve that question.

I've thought JL did a very good job of describing my understanding of reality. Reality is what is right in front of you. It is what you are experiencing at the moment. Nothing more, nothing less. I try to maintain that awareness. Can I prove that to you in terms you accept? Probably not, but that doesn't make my understanding nonsense. And I think I do know that. It's more than a guess. I would add that meditation has helped me maintain my awareness by teaching me how to ignore the noise and confusion that disturbs understanding. This is also something I know. You can call that an illusion, but you don't know that. I think that considering whether or not it is an illusion is the noise and confusion I mentioned.

Is that a "Yes, I think you are a hypocrite, Frank"...or "No, I do not think you are a hypocrite?"

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Neither. I am not going to be dragged into a judgmental contest. I know the next statement will be, 'prove it'. There's no value in that interchange. KNOW and GUESS are powerful words for you and you use them to dismiss others explanations of their beliefs. You take a very hard position which, I think, causes you to miss their point. I'm not concerned about a label someone sent in your direction. I do think you assume there can be no knowledge in a 'teaching' without a valid consideration. But, as we often say here, that is your choice.

1 Reply

@IRFRANK,

IRFRANK wrote:

Neither. I am not going to be dragged into a judgmental contest. I know the next statement will be, 'prove it'.

NO...the next statement would not be "prove it"...and I suspect I use the words "prove it" less than anybody on this forum. I hardly ever use them.

My comment, if you had said "yes" would have been to acknowledge a great deal of disappointment.

The fact that you have not said "no", in fact, is a significant disappointment.

Quote:

There's no value in that interchange. KNOW and GUESS are powerful words for you and you use them to dismiss others explanations of their beliefs.

This is the problem with characterizing what I say...rather than actually quoting what I say.

I do not ever dismiss other people's beliefs. I simply accept them as guesses that are being disguised.

There is a difference.

Quote:

You take a very hard position which, I think, causes you to miss their point. I'm not concerned about a label someone sent in your direction. I do think you assume there can be no knowledge in a 'teaching' without a valid consideration. But, as we often say here, that is your choice.

I am saying...and have said dozens upon dozens of times...is that I do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence...and that I suspect you (whomever I am speaking with) does not either.

Do you, Frank, KNOW the true nature of the REALITY of existence?

If not...why not simply acknowledge that you do not.

If you do KNOW it...explain what the REALITY actually is...and tell me how you KNOW it.

3 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

I do not think you are "a hypocrite," Frank, but this last post can give the impression that you are. Don't ask me why, just think about it honestly.
I might be willing to accuse you of a degree of self-righteousness, but that's a box I prefer not to open for fear that it applies to me as well.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Do you, Frank, KNOW the true nature of the REALITY of existence?

If not...why not simply acknowledge that you do not.

If you do KNOW it...explain what the REALITY actually is...and tell me how you KNOW it.

I know something of the true nature of reality and I can't tell you how I know it.

I know something of love as do many people (a separate topic) and I can't tell you how I know it.

There is a path for some to true love and there is a path to understanding the true nature of reality... no one can explain it to you... you have to travel the path... the path is to wake up from the dream... how? I can't explain it but the Buddha (his teachings) can.

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

Quote:

I do not think you are "a hypocrite," Frank, but this last post can give the impression that you are. Don't ask me why, just think about it honestly.

First of all...thank you for not thinking I am a hypocrite. I wish you had gotten to the point where you DID think I am NOT a hypocrite...a slightly different variation on the issue.

As for the content of what you wrote, however, if I cannot ask…I am not sure how to deal with the question.

I re-read everything I wrote in that post…and I see nothing that would lead to an impression of hypocrisy…unless my comments are stretched beyond reason.

Let me take just the first item of my post…and discuss it for a bit.

I said I do not say, “prove it.” I did that as innocuously as possible, but I would be willing to go much further...to challenge anyone to go over all the posts I have ever made…thousands upon thousands of posts here and at other forums…AND DEFY ANYONE to find one instance of me saying “prove it” on any of the things we normally discuss…like the nature of REALITY…or “There is a God” or “There are no gods.” I just do not do it. Ever. And this is a point I have made many times in this forum when this accusation comes up.

But, by stretching that…by suggesting that by making that challenge, I am, in effect, saying “prove it”…well, I am not sure what has been accomplished.

I certainly am willing to state the proposition with more equivocation: I never ask for proof on issue I am suggesting almost certainly cannot be proven. I never ask a theist to “prove” there is a GOD, never ask a strong atheist to “prove” there are no gods. I do ask for the evidence that leads to those conclusions…IN ORDER TO DISCUSS THE ISSUE.

This does not mean I will not ask someone to furnish an exact quote rather than a characterization…or ask someone to furnish some basis for an accusation (such as the hypocrisy accusation) in order to discuss whatever fault the person has with what I said.

I have “thought about it honestly”, JL…and I HONESTLY do not see any hypocrisy in what I have written here.

If you disagree…tell me where you disagree…and we can discuss it a bit more. If you do not disagree but want me to go on to the rest of my post, I will do it.

(I do consider “beliefs” to be guesses. I’ve never hidden that. And I have never hidden the fact that I make guesses myself. And I certainly do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence. )

I tell you that I am NOT a hypocrite…nor am I exhibiting hypocritical tendencies in my posts.

There is no hypocrisy that I see there at all.

So I ask, what specifically do you see as hypocritical…or tending toward hypocrisy in what I wrote?

0 Replies

@igm,

igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Do you, Frank, KNOW the true nature of the REALITY of existence?

If not...why not simply acknowledge that you do not.

If you do KNOW it...explain what the REALITY actually is...and tell me how you KNOW it.

I know something of the true nature of reality and I can't tell you how I know it.

Okay...and I suspect you really do not KNOW something about the true nature of REALITY.

Since you suggest that you "can't tell me how" you know...perhaps you can tell me this: How can you be certain you are not deluding yourself when you think you actually KNOW something about the true nature of REALITY?

Quote:

There is a path for some to true love and there is a path to understanding the true nature of reality... no one can explain it to you... you have to travel the path... the path is to wake up from the dream... how? I can't explain it but the Buddha (his teachings) can.

Yup...and I have Christians telling me all the time that there is a path to understanding the true nature of REALITY...but that I have to love GOD and Jesus...and ask them to explain it to me. And if I do enough of that...I will finally come to understand and KNOW the truth.

Igm...with all the respect in the universe...I suspect that is nonsense.

3 Replies

I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

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