Snowdon is a dummy

Way too much wringing of hands here from everyone.

@Frank Apisa,

I also have fire extinguishers and back up generators and first aid kits and so on but then if you ever have live in an area where the total infrastructure was wiped out for months on end you would tend to learn your lesson about being prepare for that happening again.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

I also have fire extinguishers and back up generators and first aid kits and so on but then if you ever have live in an area where the total infrastructure was wiped out for months on end you would tend to learn your lesson about being prepare for that happening again.

Maybe I would.

I've been lucky...no great misfortunes.

Who knows?

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@Frank Apisa,

Says Alfred E Neuman.

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@JPB,

"Control is good, trust is better." That's what we (and parliaments) should do now, agencies and governments are telling us.

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@revelette,

I'm sorry Rev, I don't want to sound like JTT, but it's very important we use the correct terminology to describe Manning's treatment, who was a high profile prisoner throughout his detention.

Quote:

The UN special rapporteur on torture has formally accused the US government of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment towards Bradley Manning, the US soldier who was held in solitary confinement for almost a year on suspicion of being the WikiLeaks source.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un

The UN special rapporteur on torture is an expert, we should take his word for it. Looking at isolated examples of his treatment like lack of air conditioning makes it sound like things were just a bit rough. My house has no air conditioning, it's naturally cool in summer, I rarely have to get a fan out. What's Manning complaining about? Air conditioning is just a rich man's luxury. Similarly with waterboarding, bit of a wet face what's the problem with that?

The Spanish Inquisition, no strangers to torture, certainly classed waterboarding as torture, a very effective form of torture in fact. They operated in a time where they didn't have to use euphemisms to describe what they do.

Neither of us really appreciate how hot it got in Manning's cell, neither of us have experienced treatment like that which is why we need to rely on expert opinion like that of Juan Mendez.

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@izzythepush,

Quote:

I don't want to sound like JTT

No, you're happy to sound just like the apologist for war criminals that you are.

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@izzythepush,

This quote is from your link:

Quote:

Mendez told the Guardian that he could not reach a definitive conclusion on whether Manning had been tortured because he has consistently been denied permission by the US military to interview the prisoner under acceptable circumstances.

So Mendez is not saying definitively that Manning was tortured. I had read that Manning had been deprived of his clothes inside his cell where he was confined without company for approximately 24 days and nights. For most Americans, having an air conditioner is a necessity and many homes have central air conditioning. Yet, there are many Americans too poor to own an air conditioner and suffer during the extreme weather elements like we just experience a couple of weeks ago. Now what Manning might have endured could be described as torture to some but much preferable to water torture under the Dick Cheney administration, or the nail pulling under many middle east dictatorships.

It seems as if you want to see that Manning was tortured to illustrate a particular viewpoint. Careful, now. There's not too much daylight between you and JTT, the monomaniac.

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@Arjunakki,

The headline from the same link.

Quote:

Bradley Manning's treatment was cruel and inhuman, UN torture chief rules

He wasn't given enough access to prove definitively that he was tortured, with what little access he was granted he could determine that the treatment was cruel and inhuman. It's probably a moot point whether or not the cruel and inhumane treatment tipped over into torture, because Mendez wasn't given enough access America shouldn't be let off the hook.

If America is saying Manning wasn't tortured they should have given Mendez unrestricted access. It's reasonable to assume that they had a lot more to hide.

Those Americans too poor to own an air conditioner can always go outside and sit in the shade, Manning couldn't.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Quote:

He wasn't given enough access to prove definitively that he was tortured, with what little access he was granted he could determine that the treatment was cruel and inhuman. It's probably a moot point whether or not the cruel and inhumane treatment tipped over into torture, because Mendez wasn't given enough access America shouldn't be let off the hook.

Mendez's opinion, realistically, would not hold up in a court of law and a not too shrewd a lawyer would punch holes in his statement. If we approach a situation with a bias view from the get go, usually we will see just enough info to illustrate what we wish to convey to others. Unless we know factually that Manning was indeed tortured by the current administration, we just do not know. There's been a lot of talk about US torture of Manning, but mostly by those who wish to throw dirt on the image of the US. I cannot say whether Manning was tortured but am inclined to believe he was not. My opinion is just as valid as yours. And so we will agree, hopefully, to disagree.

As to those poor Americans unable to own an air conditioner, there are centers set up around the country where they can go. Not everyone take advantage of this and some elderly do die. Americans are urged to check on the elderly who're alone and urge them to go to centers. Many homes are given free air conditioners in very deprived areas.

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@Arjunakki,

Whether or not Mendez's view would stand up in a court of law is just your opinion.

Mendez is an expert, he works for the UN as an expert and has no axe to grind with the US. The fact that he was given enough access to concur Manning's treatment was inhumane and cruel but not enough to finally conclude he was tortured suggests America has something to hide.

We can agree to disagree on lots of things, and remain civil. I'm only rude to people who are rude to me.

I do think that America's hounding of Snowden has done more damage to America's reputation than the original disclosures did.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Quote:

Mendez is an expert, he works for the UN as an expert and has no axe to grind with the US.

I'm happy to hear Mendez is an expert at his job and being such he has not definitively stated Manning was tortured but that it was his opinion. Until the truth is finally revealed beyond a shadow of a doubt Manning was tortured I will withhold judgement.

Quote:

The fact that he was given enough access to concur Manning's treatment was inhumane and cruel but not enough to finally conclude he was tortured suggests America has something to hide.

And this perception might be in the eye of the beholder, especially with one who is transparently anti-American. I believe a person is innocent until proven beyond a doubt to be guilty.

Quote:

I do think that America's hounding of Snowden has done more damage to America's reputation than the original disclosures did.

I understand the sentiment on this board is pro-Snowden and those who criticize Snowden's actions are verbally put down. That doesn't not alter the reality that Snowden deliberately positioned himself to get classified information on the US and leak it to the world. Snowden is a criminal for stealing US classified information and a defector because when he did this he realized he was wrong and the US would be after him. His first destination was Hong Kong and then found himself stranded in the Moscow Transit Zone until given temporary asylum in Russia. Snowden can get a lawyer and return here to the US to get a fair trial, especially with the world watching.

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@Arjunakki,

Transparently anti-American? Please, I just don't feel comfortable having foreign troops based here. And I definitely don't want them being used in a war against Iran.

If you think there is a prevailing anti-American attitude in Europe you can blame George Bush. Obama did make a difference, but the Snowden allegations and America's subsequent actions aren't helping.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Quote:

Transparently anti-American? Please, I just don't feel comfortable having foreign troops based here. And I definitely don't want them being used in a war against Iran.

The sentiment is reciprocal especially regarding Iran. As to the former, if your government were opposed to US bases there and asked the US to withdraw I don't understand what the problem is. I do understand your personal feelings. My strongest feelings are against being coerced into a war by a special interest here in the US. America lost too many lives when it illegally invaded Iraq and now to attack Iran, GAWD, that's too damn much!

Quote:

If you think there is a prevailing anti-American attitude in Europe you can blame George Bush. Obama did make a difference, but the Snowden allegations and America's subsequent actions aren't helping.

George W Bush should never have been born let alone the president of the US. -- One is hard pressed to think of anything this idiot ever did that was right. One can reasonably understand why Europe would look contemptuously down on the US after the Bush admin. We Americans are still living in the aftermath of that moron, the worse in American history.

The Snowden incident is something apart from the GWB's administration and should be judged accordinglyl

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@izzythepush,

I'm basing my criticism about Obama on the Guardian's report on torture. In the first place, I have pretty high confidence in what the Guardian reports, and I don't have that much confidence in Obama.

I do not believe Obama is an honest man; he has done too many things that are not acceptable as president of this country.

We all have our definition of torture; according to GW Bush waterboarding was not torture. In today's world, being deprived of one's clothing and suffering the change in climate is torture. Would anyone treat their own family members that way?

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@Arjunakki,

Quote:

Snowden can get a lawyer and return here to the US to get a fair trial, especially with the world watching.

LOL and this is kind of reminding me of one of the men charge with the Lincoln conspiracy John H. Surratt who ran for the Canadian border and did not get drag back until after the emotions surrounding the Lincoln assassination had die down.

He was let go to live his life after a jury deadlock on the charges unlike his mother who was hung after a "fair military trial".

No I do not see that it would be any wiser for Snowdon to turn himself in now any more then it would had been wise for Surratt to had done so and be hung by his mother.

The Obama administration and the DOJ under Holder is not likely to allowed a fair trial any more then the military court under President Johnson would have given Surratt a fair trial.

Results of the fair trial if Surratt had turn himself in

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQsuuCc3YfOHAlZMGH2J8pQbaMcDAZ5ZBkmmYxqw6MGXRIgmMORJg

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@Arjunakki,

Arjunakki wrote:

My strongest feelings are against being coerced into a war by a special interest here in the US. America lost too many lives when it illegally invaded Iraq and now to attack Iran, GAWD, that's too damn much!

Agreed, but the main difference was that initially most Americans supported the war. You may have been lied to by special interests groups and your news outlets were particularly supine in the run up to the war, but most Americans supported it.

We didn't, the majority were against it from the off, there was the largest ever rally in London against the war, yet Blair went along with it. I doubt Cameron would be stupid enough to commit British troops to a war in Iran after all the fallout Blair got over Iraq, but the use of our bases is something else. This would also make us more of a target for terrorists.

The 7/7 bombings in London were a direct result of the war in Iraq.

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@izzythepush,

Quote:

The 7/7 bombings in London were a direct result of the war in Iraq.

Yes, indeed nuts/sociopaths like your subway/bus bombers and our Boston Marathon bombers would not had found another reason to kill in the name of their religion.

Such people are logical and only focus on "valid" reasons to do mass random murders.

The word idiot keep coming into my mind everytime I unignore one of your postings for some strange reason.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Quote:

Arjunakki wrote:
My strongest feelings are against being coerced into a war by a special interest here in the US. America lost too many lives when it illegally invaded Iraq and now to attack Iran, GAWD, that's too damn much!

Quote:

Izzythepush wrote:
Agreed, but the main difference was that initially most Americans supported the war. You may have been lied to by special interests groups and your news outlets were particularly supine in the run up to the war, but most Americans supported it.

The American people embraced going to war in Afghanistan to capture Bin Ladin --- before we knew what hit us, GWB was going to war in Iraq. It's misleading to infer "ALL AMERICANS" were for going to war in Iraq --- I certainly was not for such, and most people I know, were against invading Iraq. Hillary Clinton was for invading Iraq but not Senator Obama. Many Americans who did not follow the news closely might have confused the two as one war but I and many others knew differently and that was it was the NEOCONS' agenda to invade Iraq and Dick Cheney who wanted to manipulate the oil contracts there. Iraq had done nothing to us or Britain, yet the lie came out of Britain that Saddam had a weapon that could reach the UK in 45 Minutes. This was later to be proven false as was the propaganda that Saddam Hussein had WMD, but then again, the powers that be were well aware Saddam's WMD, ie. nerve gas, had deteriorated on the shelves right after the first Gulf War, Desert Storm.

NO, emphatically, NO! Not all Americans were for the invasion into Iraq---all Americans are not lacking in intelligence, some of us do question the status quo.

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@Arjunakki,

Arjunakki wrote:

This quote is from your link:

Quote:

Mendez told the Guardian that he could not reach a definitive conclusion on whether Manning had been tortured because he has consistently been denied permission by the US military to interview the prisoner under acceptable circumstances.

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Snowdon is a dummy

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