42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
JPB
 
  2  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 02:41 pm
@revelette,
Wyden's former deputy chief of staff has an excellent summary of this week's (and the last 5 years) events here
JPB
 
  2  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 02:47 pm
@revelette,
Perhaps Carter is referencing a similar thought as this (from the link I posted above)

Quote:
In his book, Secrecy: The American Experience, former Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan included a quote from a 1960 report issued by the House Committee on Operations which I believe provides a far better response than anything I could write on my own:

Secrecy -- the first refuge of incompetents -- must be at a bare minimum in a democratic society for a fully informed public is the basis of self government. Those elected or appointed to positions of executive authority must recognize that government, in a democracy, cannot be wiser than its people.

Which brings me to my final point (at least for now) I think it's awfully hard for the American people to trust the President and his administration when their best response to the concerns Americans are raising is to denigrate the Americans raising those concerns. Because, you see, I have a hard time understanding why my wanting to stand up for democratic principles makes me unpatriotic, while the ones calling themselves patriots seem to think so little of the people and the principles that comprise the country they purport to love.
revelette
 
  1  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 03:05 pm
@JPB,
From what I gathered from the article, the argument for the legality for these programs were shared with members of the intelligence committee, apparently more members agree with the arguments but Wyden didn't. Wyden wants to declassify the argument, but the other members who support the argument don't. She is saying that if President were sincere in wanting a debate, then they would declassify the argument used to justify the programs so that folks can have an informed debate.

It is a fair point.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 03:07 pm
@JPB,
No matter how you slice it, Snowden did break the law when he copied classified information and taking it to other countries. He needs to answer to that, it is that simple.
BillRM
 
  3  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 03:16 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
America does have a functioning democratic republic at this time.


About as functioning as the Roman Republic was in BC 42 or so.
BillRM
 
  3  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 03:18 pm
@revelette,
e
Quote:
don't have a democracy is a little too far and not true. Sure there are problems, but they can be fixed.


Little problems like a few hundreds people having more wealth then the bottom fifty percents of the population?
0 Replies
 
Arjunakki
 
  1  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 03:23 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:

Carter should stay retired.

America does have a functioning democratic republic at this time. If he thinks not, senility may finally have taken hold.


Jimmy Carter has remained politically active in the cause of human rights since losing his bid for reelection. Carter hosted the Camp David agreements of 1978, and won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2002.

Jimmy Carter is a son of Georgia, the deep south, and to reconcile his statement that the current "government is not a functioning democratic republic at this time" proves he has begun the mental degeneration towards the disease of old age, or the deep cultural prejudices of the deep south that a black man has overstepped his bounds by becoming president of the US might be surfacing. If Romney had gotten into power the immediate repeal of ObamaCare would be well on its way. The poor would have gotten poorer while the rich richer. America would be a rich man's world and no room at the Inn. If the republicans, led by the right-wing Tea Party, ever got the presidency, may the powers that be help America!!!!!!!
BillRM
 
  3  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 03:25 pm
@revelette,
Quote:
Snowden did break the law when he copied classified information and taking it to other countries.


There is an interesting concept in the law call the necessity defense.

Quote:


http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Necessity+defense

the necessity defense has long been recognized as Common Law and has also been made part of most states' statutory law. Although no federal statute acknowledges the defense, the Supreme Court has recognized it as part of the common law. The rationale behind the necessity defense is that sometimes, in a particular situation, a technical breach of the law is more advantageous to society than the consequence of strict adherence to the law. The defense is often used successfully in cases that involve a Trespass on property to save a person's life or property. It also has been used, with varying degrees of success, in cases involving more complex questions.

Almost all common-law and statutory definitions of the necessity defense include the following elements: (1) the defendant acted to avoid a significant risk of harm; (2) no adequate lawful means could have been used to escape the harm; and (3) the harm avoided was greater than that caused by breaking the law. Some jurisdictions require in addition that the harm must have been imminent and that the action taken must have been reasonably expected to avoid the imminent danger. All these elements mirror the principles on which the defense of necessity was founded: first, that the highest social value is not always achieved by blind adherence to the law; second, that it is unjust to punish those who technically violate the letter of the law when they are acting to promote or achieve a higher social value than would be served by strict adherence to the law; and third, that it is in society's best interest to promote the greatest good and to encourage people to seek to achieve the greatest good, even if doing so necessitates a technical breach of the law.

The defense of necessity is considered a justification defense, as compared with an excuse defense such as duress. An action that is harmful but praiseworthy is justified, whereas an action that is harmful but ought to be forgiven may be excused. Rather than focusing on the actor's state of mind, as would be done with an excuse defense, the court with a necessity defense focuses on the value of the act.
revelette
 
  1  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 03:27 pm
@JPB,
Apparently the legal rationale was released during the President's speech yesterday.

Quote:
In his remarks, the president gave no indication he was prepared to change the core of one of the most controversial programs, an effort to collect and store identifying information about virtually all the phone calls made in the United States.

There was quick reaction from lawmakers.

Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, issued a statement saying he would "carefully examine the materials released today and will continue to press for greater transparency, including the release of significant FISA Court opinions."

Sen. Saxby Chambliss, a Georgian and senior Republican on the Senate intelligence committee, said, "I believe there is a consensus among my colleagues that any modifications to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act must be made on a strong bipartisan basis and must not impede the intelligence community's ability to prevent terrorist attacks."

Obama announced relatively modest changes, including one to create an independent attorney to argue against the government during secret hearings of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which reviews requests for surveillance inside the U.S. Under current law, prosecutors now make their legal case without opposing argument, subject only to a ruling by a judge.

Obama is creating an outside advisory panel to review U.S. surveillance powers, although it is unclear how that differs from the U.S. Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board, an existing panel mandated by Congress, to monitor surveillance systems and constitutional considerations.

Obama said the NSA would hire a privacy officer and that intelligence agencies would build a website explaining their mission.

As Obama spoke, the Justice Department released what Obama called "the legal rationale" for the surveillance. The document appeared to be primarily a recitation of what the administration has previously told Congress.


source

So, is that rationale the same as the one Wyden wanted declassified?
revelette
 
  2  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 03:30 pm
@BillRM,
Well, then, it seems as though Snowden should have a good defense for breaking the law, he should come and stand trial for it. As is in the news as all this is, there is no way that Snowden would be treated as Manning was which was shameful I have to admit.
BillRM
 
  3  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 03:48 pm
@revelette,
Quote:
Well, then, it seems as though Snowden should have a good defense for breaking the law he should come and stand trial for it.


I do not see why he would have any moral obligations to subject himself to the Obama/Holder justice department.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 04:03 pm
@revelette,
revelette wrote:

Well, then, it seems as though Snowden should have a good defense for breaking the law, he should come and stand trial for it. As is in the news as all this is, there is no way that Snowden would be treated as Manning was which was shameful I have to admit.


I don't share your confidence. Manning wasn't exactly out of the public gaze when he was being tortured.
revelette
 
  1  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 04:06 pm
@izzythepush,
I admit that being deprived of his clothes and air conditioning and being in solitary for so long was cruel and it is not what I want our government to be doing. However, he has hardly been on the top headlines for ordinary people who don't follow these things, of which I am one I guess. Never really heard of him until right before he was sentenced.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 04:22 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
America does have a functioning democratic republic at this time.


About as functioning as the Roman Republic was in BC 42 or so.


I am sure you consider this remark to be both incisive and cute.

In my opinion it is neither.

Nice try, though.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 04:24 pm
@Arjunakki,
Arjunakki wrote:

Quote:

Carter should stay retired.

America does have a functioning democratic republic at this time. If he thinks not, senility may finally have taken hold.


Jimmy Carter has remained politically active in the cause of human rights since losing his bid for reelection. Carter hosted the Camp David agreements of 1978, and won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2002.

Jimmy Carter is a son of Georgia, the deep south, and to reconcile his statement that the current "government is not a functioning democratic republic at this time" proves he has begun the mental degeneration towards the disease of old age, or the deep cultural prejudices of the deep south that a black man has overstepped his bounds by becoming president of the US might be surfacing. If Romney had gotten into power the immediate repeal of ObamaCare would be well on its way. The poor would have gotten poorer while the rich richer. America would be a rich man's world and no room at the Inn. If the republicans, led by the right-wing Tea Party, ever got the presidency, may the powers that be help America!!!!!!!


I certainly agree that he seems to be exhibiting signs of deteriorating thinking.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 04:25 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Well, then, it seems as though Snowden should have a good defense for breaking the law he should come and stand trial for it.


I do not see why he would have any moral obligations to subject himself to the Obama/Holder justice department.


That was a statement about your blindness, Bill.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 04:54 pm
@revelette,
I don't know.

I skimmed it yesterday when it was released. Here it is if you're interested. There's also one from the NSA

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/750211-administration-white-paper-section-215.html
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/750221-2013-08-09-the-nsa-story.html

They did agree yesterday to release the redacted FISC ruling that EFF has sued for under the freedom of information act detailing how they superseded their authority. We'll have to see what it says when it comes out.
BillRM
 
  3  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 05:49 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I am sure you consider this remark to be both incisive and cute.

In my opinion it is neither.

Nice try, though.


I consider it worrisome that as far as the concentration of wealth/power and the reduction of the middle class we are now in a very must the same position as the Rome Republic in it last decades.

With special note that the US founders model our system to a great degree on the Roman Republic and it would seem we are following their path.
RABEL222
 
  2  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 06:25 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Carter is right. The Supreme Court took care of our democracy when they equated spending money with free speech. How can I have equal representation with my $100 political spending when the Koch Brothers and their ilk can spend hundreds of millions. The rich have bought our government and anyone who thinks different is just kidding themselves.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 10 Aug, 2013 06:40 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
I am sure you consider this remark to be both incisive and cute.

In my opinion it is neither.

Nice try, though.


I consider it worrisome that as far as the concentration of wealth/power and the reduction of the middle class we are now in a very must the same position as the Rome Republic in it last decades.

With special note that the US founders model our system to a great degree on the Roman Republic and it would seem we are following their path.



I understand, Bill.

You worry about personal safety...so you carry a gun.

You worry about cyber criminals...so you encrypt stuff.

You worry about the health of the republic...so you write about it.

What can I say?
 

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