42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 11:50 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
Why don't you?

Frank Apisa's Signature line:
To acknowledge what you do not know – is a display of strength. To pretend you know what you truly don’'t – is a display of weakness.



Shocked Drunk Drunk
JTT
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 11:52 am
@Brandon9000,
You are being highly disingenuous, Brandon, with your silly pretense that you don't understand satire.

As are your little hangers on number punchers.

"Those who would fail to demand their governments stop terrorizing others, to stop stealing their wealth, to stop slaughtering others and then allow fascists to rule them simply in order to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. What they deserve is a good swift kick in the pants to jar them from their ignorance and woeful indifference to the vicious crimes committed with their connivance and their dollars."
-Benjamin Franklin [from the grave]

Brandon9000
 
  -1  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 12:00 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

You are being highly disingenuous, Brandon, with your silly pretense that you don't understand satire.

As are your little hangers on number punchers.

"Those who would fail to demand their governments stop terrorizing others, to stop stealing their wealth, to stop slaughtering others and then allow fascists to rule them simply in order to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. What they deserve is a good swift kick in the pants to jar them from their ignorance and woeful indifference to the vicious crimes committed with their connivance and their dollars."
-Benjamin Franklin [from the grave]



Translation: You don't want to assert anything clear and specific because then it could actually be debated on its merits, which is the last thing you want. You prefer to make vague references to wrongdoing without every tying them to a specific case.
JTT
 
  0  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 12:04 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Shocked Drunk Drunk


Frank Apisa Profile:

"I write lots of letters to the editor and op ed pieces. I've had a letter published in The New York Times--and I was lucky enough a few years back to get a full page My Turn article in Newsweek. I've had hundreds of letters published in local newspapers--and have had tens of dozens of op ed essays and guest columns published also."
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 12:18 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:
Engineer, all's fair in love and war.


That is false, false, and did I mention false, MIT? There were very specific rules described after WWII, largely at the hand of the USA. These rules clearly defined unacceptable/illegal behavior which resulted in Germans and Japanese being hung.

The really odd thing is that these rules have never been applied to the US even though the US has almost certainly been the country that has broken these laws the most.

Noam Chomsky: The phrase 'war on terrorism' should always be used in quotes, cause there can't possibly be a war on terrorism, it's impossible. The reason is it's led by one of the worst terrorist states in the world, in fact it's led by the only state in the world which has been condemned by the highest international authorities for international terrorism, namely the World Court and Security Council, except that the US vetoed the resolution.

Are you aware of this?

Quote:
If my country is under attack and American citizens the victims, I would hope my government would do everything in its power to protect me and I'm not too particular about the details.


You are admitting to being, at the least, a supporter of war criminals and terrorists. Eisenhower dragged German civilians to the Nazi death camps to show them what they were ignoring.

Should US citizens be allowed to ignore what their governments have done, which has been every bit as evil as what the Nazis did?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 12:29 pm
From The New Yorker
Quote:
JULY 4, 2013
THE N.S.A.’S COSTLY EUROPEAN ADVENTURE
POSTED BY STEVE COLL

http://i39.tinypic.com/t6w03c.jpg
Above: Protesters in Berlin. Photograph by Kay Nietfeld /DPA/AP.

(...)The new disclosures describe data collection and black-bag bugging jobs directed by the United States against European allies, including Germany, France, Britain, and the European Union.

The notionally sophisticated reaction in both Washington and Europe has been mais, bien sur—all countries spy on their friends and betray the trust of their allies (even when, as now, those allies have sent soldiers to fight and die in an expeditionary war, in Afghanistan, that the allies never much believed in, but signed up for mainly out of loyalty to the United States and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization). (...)
[...]
As the reporters James Fontanella-Khan and Joshua Chaffin pointed out in the Financial Times this week, American diplomats have for four years now waged “an ongoing, multi-agency effort to convince the E.U. to cooperate on a wide array of intelligence gathering, from sharing airline passenger data to watering down consumer data protection legislation.” Persuading democratic governments to share information on their citizens in the name of counterterrorism or any other security priority is fraught with legal and political problems in the best of circumstances. It will now be harder. Was what the Obama Administration learned about the French Ambassador worth it?

As every parent of a nine-year-old has recited at least once, just because “everyone” does something doesn’t mean that it’s smart. Britain reportedly has decided against bugging American facilities on the grounds that, if caught, the damage to London’s reputation in Congress and among the American public as a distinctive, thick-and-thin ally would outweigh any benefits in information collection. That may just be British spin trotted out this week because Government Communications Headquarters, Britain’s equivalent of the N.S.A., hasn’t been caught bugging an American embassy. Yet it is surely better to proffer that story than to say, We’re no worse than anybody else.

The British line reflects the hard lessons of intelligence history. There may be some official secrets that will long remain secret, even in the age of Wikileaks; and yet, no President or Prime Minister should approve a covert action unless he is persuaded after careful review that, even if the action is exposed, its benefits will likely exceed the costs of bad publicity.

The bugging of E.U. offices in Brussels, according to documents obtained by Der Spiegel, is on its face the most puzzling case. For years, nine-to-five European civil servants have been commuting through the dreary Brussels rain to their soul-crushing cubicles in the headquarters of the modern European proto-state, cursing the triviality of their meetings and drowning their sorrows at night with beer. Why break the laws of Belgium to listen in on these specialists in the economics of recycling, antitrust regulation, and the health risks of consumer plastics?

Was the mission to seek for the United States a negotiating edge in “Open Skies” aviation landing rights bargaining on behalf of United Airlines? Or to obtain a file of secret memos that would allow American diplomats to embarrass European agriculture ministers at the next round of talks over excessive Italian vineyard and olive subsidies?

The most likely explanation is that President Obama never carefully discussed or specifically approved the E.U. bugging, and that no cabinet-level body ever reviewed, on the President’s behalf, the operation’s potential costs in the event of exposure. America’s post-September 11th national-security state has become so well financed, so divided into secret compartments, so technically capable, so self-perpetuating, and so captured by profit-seeking contractors bidding on the next big idea about big-data mining that intelligence leaders seem to have lost their facility to think independently. Who is deciding what spying projects matter most and why?
ossobuco
 
  2  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 12:40 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I finally, just a couple of hours ago, subscribed to the NYer again, my not have subscribed for a few years being hard on me, shudder, while helping my wallet stay alive.

I've been reading it online, but whole bunches of articles are locked to non subscribers; still worth a look though, for the articles that aren't locked.
Anyway, Coll is a guy I read, and his stuff is not usually locked, including the article you mention, Walter.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 12:45 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Article 3, section 3, clause 1 of the U.S. Constitution specifies that the giving of aid and comfort to the enemy is an element in the crime of Treason. Aid and comfort may consist of substantial assistance or the mere attempt to provide some support; actual help or the success of the enterprise is not relevant.


Does all the aid the US government supplied to the Taliban, to Saddam Hussein, to the Iranians [Iran-Contra scandal] to all the myriad dictators who American has turned into enemies count as "giving of aid and comfort to the enemy", CI?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 01:02 pm
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
Translation: You don't want to assert anything clear and specific because then it could actually be debated on its merits, which is the last thing you want. You prefer to make vague references to wrongdoing without every tying them to a specific case.


Now you are being just plain stupid, Brandon. The notion that I don't/haven't made specific references, that I haven't describe clearly, the evil that the US has perpetrated upon so many countries for over a century is laughable in the extreme.

You haven't noticed Frank Apisa's childish attempts to avoid discussing these important issues? You haven't noticed the hundreds of A2Kers who avoid, have long avoided discussing these important issues. You haven't noticed the myriad sources I've posted describing US war crimes, terrorism, support of myriad dictators, the theft of so many countries' wealth, the ... ?

Really, what planet have you been living on?
JTT
 
  0  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 01:11 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
but I tend to get very irate reactions from Americans for suggesting it.


I think that you are being patently unfair to Americans, Thomas.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 01:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
USPS mail abuse is another program that has harsher government regulations than the telephone or the internet. When you use any public wifi hotspot, you're open to others ability to see what you post.
You didn't know that?


Talk about a strawman or maybe it's just a red herring, CI.

WiFi is a CHOICE we have [would you like me to define CHOICE for you?] and most people who aren't walking around in a daze realize the risks associated with using it. Note that the people who do steal information from WiFi zones are appropriately described as criminals.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 01:21 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

ehBeth wrote:
I agree. I don't understand why more Americans are not really really angry about this.

Because most Americans (that I know of) are either apathetic about politics or in a hyper-partisan mindset. And the strange thing about American partisanship its that it recognizes only two alternatives. Partisanship against one big party automatically translates into partisanship for the other. Hence, any disapproval of Democratic conduct is seen as approval for Republicans. I think that's why many American liberals feel unfree to criticize Democrats from the left. There's no way American liberals would sneer at Snowden like this if president McCain or president Romney had ordered the surveillance.

Good for you, Canadians, that you recently shitcanned one party in your two-party system and brought in another! I wish America did the same, but I tend to get very irate reactions from Americans for suggesting it. When Americans discover that the Democratic Party is dispensable, and that they can swap it out for a liberal alternative, America just might become a better, less-snooped-on place.


Thomas...this appears to be a bunch of self-serving nonsense to me. I seriously doubt "most Americans" you know are either apathetic about politics or in a hyper-partisan mindset.

Some are apathetic...some are partisan. Many are far from apathetic...most of the people we know in common are FAR FROM APATHETIC...and most are not "hyper-partisan" (whatever the hell that means to you)...but have strong feelings in a particular direction for humanity.

One of the parties seems to me to be MUCH less likely to further the progressive agenda I deem appropriate for a country like ours. The other, while not a bunch of angels by any means, seems more inclined to foster and support that agenda. So I support one of the parties. That does not make me...or any of the others who feel as I do...hyper-partisan.
JTT
 
  0  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 01:33 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Thomas...this appears to be a bunch of self-serving nonsense to me.


I couldn't agree more, Frank. You did notice how I chided Thomas on that, didn't you?

Quote:
I seriously doubt "most Americans" you know are either apathetic about politics or in a hyper-partisan mindset.


Again, we agree, Frank. You can't call a people who go to such lengths to stop their governments from illegally invading sovereign nations, committing ongoing terrorist acts, stealing others wealth, apathetic or hyper-partisan.

That would be simply ludicrous.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 01:36 pm
Let's end this charade with "c.i. is a dummy."

Nuf said.
JTT
 
  0  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 01:38 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
More fear tactics, hawk? Where will it get you?


CI, in a post just slightly before he decided to opt for this good ole bot of hypocrisy.

NSA chief: Surveillance stopped 50 terrorist ‘events’
BY MCT DIRECT – POSTED ON JUNE 19, 2013
POSTED IN: TOP STORIES

NSA chief: Surveillance stopped 50 terrorist ‘events’
By William Douglas and Ali Watkins
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 01:39 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5375958)
Quote:
Thomas...this appears to be a bunch of self-serving nonsense to me.

I couldn't agree more, Frank. You did notice how I chided Thomas on that, didn't you?


I am delighted we agree on something, JTT.

Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
I seriously doubt "most Americans" you know are either apathetic about politics or in a hyper-partisan mindset.

Again, we agree, Frank. You can't call a people who go to such lengths to stop their governments from illegally invading sovereign nations, committing ongoing terrorist acts, stealing others wealth, apathetic or hyper-partisan.

That would be simply ludicrous.


If we agree here...and I am not sure we do...we agree for such different reasons...it is closer to disagreeing. But I understand your need to heap scorn on America and Americans at every opportunity, so I will leave it at that.
JTT
 
  0  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 01:40 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Holy ****! ... if this ain't the oddest assortment ever of strange bed fellows, ...
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 01:46 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
you Krauts should do the right thing and take him in.


I think your heart was kinda in the right place, but ...

Quote:
Offensive Slang Used as a disparaging term for a German.
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/kraut


Actually, the Germans have learned a thing or two, Hawk, and have gone to great efforts to "do the right thing".

Can you point me to one "do the right thing" effort on the US's part?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 01:53 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I am delighted we agree on something, JTT.


Yes, Frank.


Quote:
If we agree here...and I am not sure we do...we agree for such different reasons...it is closer to disagreeing. But I understand your need to heap scorn on America and Americans at every opportunity, so I will leave it at that.


You don't at all understand what you term my "need to heap scorn on America and Americans at every opportunity" for precisely the reason you have given, Frank;

"so I will leave it at that"

Everyone leaves it at that despite the overwhelming evidence. I applaud, standing, whistling and screaming, JPB, Thomas, Beth, Rabel, and Ceili's honesty [sorry if I have missed anyone].

EDIT:

Walter, too.

Brandon and OmSigD, in a manner of speaking, though they are the equivalent, in other material ways, of holocaust deniers.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jul, 2013 02:02 pm
@JPB,
Well worth repeating!

Would that it could be a signature line.


engineer wrote:
But when terrorists offer the slightest threat, we are ready to throw away our rights. Not only are you willing to do "whatever it takes", to give up your basic constitutional rights to reduce those four deaths to maybe two, you are willing to give up mine. Mine aren't for sale for a miniscule amount of security or the illusion of safety. They just aren't and even if you want to give up yours, you can't give up mine.


Moment-in-Time wrote:
Engineer, my husband and I are two Americans who simply do not care if we are spied on; we don't have anything to hide....we are transparent.


JPB [game set match!] The idea that only those with something to hide have reason to want their private lives kept private and a government who actually follows it's own privacy laws is ludicrous. We're supposed to be the "land of the free and the home of the brave". It's a joke to think that we're either. The terrorists won the day the Patriot Act became law. We're terrified that two kids carrying backpacks may be plotting to do us harm. We're so brave that we send drones into sovereign airspaces and drop bombs hoping to hit an actual target and then feel "sorry" when we kill civilians who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's all ok, though, so long as none of our "brave" men and women are put at risk.

For me it comes down to who we say we are vs our current reality. We're a free (ha!) people who elect a government of career politicians in a corrupt process so that they can continue their corrupt and illegal ways.
0 Replies
 
 

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