42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 6 Jun, 2015 03:28 am
@InfraBlue,
Thanks. Worth quoting some more.

Quote:
Two years on, the difference is profound. In a single month, the N.S.A.’s invasive call-tracking program was declared unlawful by the courts and disowned by Congress. After a White House-appointed oversight board investigation found that this program had not stopped a single terrorist attack, even the president who once defended its propriety and criticized its disclosure has now ordered it terminated.

This is the power of an informed public.

Ending the mass surveillance of private phone calls under the Patriot Act is a historic victory for the rights of every citizen, but it is only the latest product of a change in global awareness. Since 2013, institutions across Europe have ruled similar laws and operations illegal and imposed new restrictions on future activities. The United Nations declared mass surveillance an unambiguous violation of human rights. In Latin America, the efforts of citizens in Brazil led to the Marco Civil, an Internet Bill of Rights. Recognizing the critical role of informed citizens in correcting the excesses of government, the Council of Europe called for new laws to protect whistle-blowers.

Beyond the frontiers of law, progress has come even more quickly. Technologists have worked tirelessly to re-engineer the security of the devices that surround us, along with the language of the Internet itself. Secret flaws in critical infrastructure that had been exploited by governments to facilitate mass surveillance have been detected and corrected. Basic technical safeguards such as encryption — once considered esoteric and unnecessary — are now enabled by default in the products of pioneering companies like Apple, ensuring that even if your phone is stolen, your private life remains private. Such structural technological changes can ensure access to basic privacies beyond borders, insulating ordinary citizens from the arbitrary passage of anti-privacy laws, such as those now descending upon Russia.

Emphasis added. Interesting that Snowden is now criticizing Russia, me think. The guy does have a pair.
RABEL222
 
  3  
Sat 6 Jun, 2015 01:52 pm
@revelette2,
Rev, type your name in any search engine and than pay the 5, 10 or 25 dollars requested and I think you will find that your freedom from spying is an illusion, and not by the government. It is private businesses that gather the info.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 6 Jun, 2015 02:01 pm
@RABEL222,
Personal privacy is a thing of the past.

We can lament that...we can wring our hands and rend our shirts.

Or...we can look at it as a possible benefit for humankind.

We all talk about wanting transparency. I suspect we have got it in spades.

Civilization grew by humans giving up privacy...and advanced by humans giving up even more. No reason to suspect this is not furtherance of that growth.

In any case, it is toothpaste that cannot be put back into the tube.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Mon 8 Jun, 2015 03:32 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
In any case, it is toothpaste that cannot be put back into the tube.


I opened the toothpaste tube in the back and stuffed the toothpaste from the back after spreading the tube and resealed the rear of the tube, so take that smart guy!! Very Happy Smile Cool
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Tue 9 Jun, 2015 06:51 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
insulating ordinary citizens from the arbitrary passage of anti-privacy laws, such as those now descending upon Russia.


Wonder if he will list those anti-privacy laws which are now descending upon Russia? Apparently he is some kind of computer wiz, surely he can hack his way into Russian classified government information. I thought under his asylum terms, he wasn't allowed to criticize Russia or something like that?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Tue 9 Jun, 2015 07:02 am
@revelette2,
Quote:
Wonder if he will list those anti-privacy laws which are now descending upon Russia? Apparently he is some kind of computer wiz, surely he can hack his way into Russian classified government information.

He could do that in the US because he had access, he was IN the system. That's not the case in Russia. Let's not ask the impossible of him.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Tue 9 Jun, 2015 03:32 pm
@Olivier5,
True, we wouldent him working in a Serbian rock mine just because he released secret Russian information.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Tue 9 Jun, 2015 03:39 pm
@RABEL222,
In English, please.
0 Replies
 
korkamann
 
  1  
Tue 9 Jun, 2015 09:26 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Now I hope he comes back to the United States to get a fair trial


He's got more chance of getting a decent cup of tea.



Will not argue with you there, and yet there exist a set of different opinions among Americans regarding Snowden. Some Americans believe the way you and some others feel; there are some Americans who believe loyalty to one's country is of paramount importance and think no American should be a traitor to his place of birth; there were ways Snowden could have made his views known to the proper authority instead of giving this classified information to journalists in other countries to release according to what they saw fit to reveal.

My personal priorities are exceptionally strong and I am not alone, but I have also observed strong contrary views from colleagues. I believe Snowden's actions to be treasonous, akin to Johnathan Pollard, Jewish-born American who stole thousands of US classified documents for Israel and the late Israeli PM Izhak Shamir gave some of these US secrets to Moscow during the cold war. One does not betray one's country in my personal perception.

I believe I know where you stand...I've read enough of your posts on this subject.....I will respectfully agree to disagree with your views.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 10 Jun, 2015 01:04 am
@korkamann,
What if your country is betraying its values and its people? What if it is betraying humanity?

We re human beings, first and foremost. We have a duty to our fellow human beings, which trumps any nationalism. We're citizens of the world, and more and more so.
korkamann
 
  1  
Wed 10 Jun, 2015 03:41 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

What if your country is betraying its values and its people? What if it is betraying humanity?


True, to a degree. But you see, Olivier, this is a case of humans trying to protect their homeland security from a growing sophisticated enemy who is out to get America for past wrong doings. 9/11 was so tragic that it left a searing memory on my mind which will never be erased. I recall watching on media people jumping from the highest floors of the Twin Towers trying to escape the enveloping flames. I fervently hope to never live to see such tragedy again!

Olivier, one cannot turn back the clock. The government might discontinue its mass spying technique, getting a warrant to investigate certain individuals who are persons of interests, but they will never totally relinquish this branch of growing technology. The Government is spying on us through our computers, phones, cars, buses, streetlights, at Airports and on the street, via Mobile Scanners and Drones, through our Smart Meters, and in many other ways.

"Betraying humanity"? Quit the dramatics, Olivier. Given half a chance the rest of humanity would be doing the exact same thing if the technology were available to them, and in fact, many are doing just that. (They say China just hacked into some major corporations recently.) When Obama became president, one of the first things he was required to do was quit the use of his blackberry because foreign countries would be capable of listening in on him the way the US government was listening in on Merkel's private cell in Germany. One of the reasons Angela Merkey wasn't more upset with Obama because their country was most likely doing the same thing to the US. It was the US who was caught with his hand in the cookie jar via Edward Snowden, a current resident of Russia. Very Happy If Snowden were unhappy with US policies, damn, he must be nearly "ecstatic" with Russia right about now!!!

Did you say "betraying values"? What values? When Jackass number One de Facto president of the US Dick Cheney invaded the sovereign nation of Iraq for profit along with using the US and Britain's military men/women as fodder, so-called human values went for a long hike.

I do admire the French, along with Germany and some other countries for not joining the US coalition to invade Iraq. As for the US algorithm meta data program, well, the US has so many ways to spy without even trying to listen in deliberately on Americans. There are cell towers where one can be tracked while talking on their phone. Through our computers....smartphone routinely sends your location information back to Apple or Google – it would be child’s play for the government to track your location that way. Your iPhone, or other brand of smartphone is spying on virtually everything you do (ProPublica notes: “That’s No Phone. That’s My Tracker"). Remember, that might be happening even when your phone is turned off.

When we apply for credit our Social Security number is given. When we open a bank account all sorts of personal information is given. When we withdraw money from the ATM machine, our picture is taken, even at each corner of a street, when we are driving our car. As Rabi222 said in a previous post all one has to do is pay a few dollars to obtain all the personal information one wants on an individual. Everything about us is out there already.

Quote:
We re human beings, first and foremost. We have a duty to our fellow human beings, which trumps any nationalism. We're citizens of the world, and more and more so.


Well, those are YOUR values as opposed to my personal values; it's obvious you and I see the world through a different prism. "Citizens of the world"? Do you recall history's WW1 and WW2? Do you recall how the US dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Oh the cruelty! The barbarity? Do you see how man's inhumanity is thriving? Look around you at the suffering in the world today and you have the gall to talk about "citizens of the world"? Gimme a fu*king break! Your version of "human values" surely must be different than mine. Look at the mess we turned Iraq into: the warring factions, Kurds, Shia, Sunni, all fighting each other and out of this chaos, comes ISI. We tore apart the structure Saddam Hussein had in place (the fear of nerve gas on his own people to control them) to keep the ethnic Iraqi factions in place; once the dictator was eliminated all hell broke loose, and look at the crap the US has left behind? We, the US and Britain, broke Iraq (General Colin Powell....you break Iraq, you own Iraq) and now they are responsible for the stabilizing of this country.

If we could somehow control Iraq to the degree where all ethnics had a share in ruling their country, the job would be much easier, but the hundreds of years of hatred and tensions among the Sunni, Shia, and Kurds tend to run too deep.

Take care and enjoy a wonderful summer.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Wed 10 Jun, 2015 05:30 am
@korkamann,
korkamann wrote:
Some Americans believe the way you and some others feel; there are some Americans who believe loyalty to one's country is of paramount importance and think no American should be a traitor to his place of birth;


The same could be said of Germans during the 3rd Reich.
RABEL222
 
  2  
Wed 10 Jun, 2015 01:05 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
The same could be said of Germans during the 3rd Reich.


That comment just lowered my estimate of your fairness by three or four notches.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Wed 10 Jun, 2015 01:33 pm
@RABEL222,
You saying it can't? I wasn't comparing America to the Third Reich but the my country right or wrong attitude.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Wed 10 Jun, 2015 04:01 pm
http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-06-09/snowden-supporters-say-usa-freedom-act-proof-former-nsa-contractor-should-be

Quote:
Snowden supporters say USA Freedom Act is proof the former NSA contractor should be allowed to come home


Quote:
The passage of the USA Freedom Act is the first major effort by Congress to rein in parts of the Patriot Act and the NSA's bulk data collection program. But the law may never have been passed had it not been for Edward Snowden, the NSA contractor who leaked information about that agency's broad surveillance powers.


Quote:
Earlier this week, Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) said the new law makes our country stronger, not weaker, in the face of terrorism and security.

"I think it is a victory for Edward Snowden," said Rep. Nadler, who co-authored the House's version of the bill. "[Snowden] revealed illegal, I would say unconstitutional, action by the government, which had been secret for years. Because of his revelation, people found out about this and Congress reacted to it, and we changed the law to make clear that they couldn't do what they were doing."

White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest disagrees. He told reporters this week that Snowden "committed very serious crimes," and that he should return to the United States to face the justice system.

John Cassidy, staff writer for The New Yorker, says it's time to recognize the value of Snowden's revelations, drop all threats of prosecution, and bring him home.

“I’ve always been on Snowden’s side in this debate,” says Cassidy. “This is a person who gave up a great deal to inform us what was going on. He took a great risk to himself, and he’s now been languishing in Russia for two years. I think rather than leaving him to languish there, we should thank him and enter into some sort of plea bargain with him that allows him to come home.”

Though lawmakers on Capitol Hill are patting themselves on the back for passing the USA Freedom Act, Cassidy argues that at least some of the credit belongs with Snowden.

“There’s absolutely no way this law would have ever gone into effect if Snowden hadn’t done what he did,” he says.

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has called the USA Freedom Act a "resounding victory for Edward Snowden." However, he added that the new law "is also a resounding victory for those who currently plot against our homeland."

“Some people have suggested that [Snowden] is cooperating with the Russians. Back in 2013, there were also suggestions that he was showing the Chinese what he had during his stopover in Hong Kong,” says Cassidy. “There’s never been any evidence to suggest any of that [is true].”

While some argue that Snowden is a treasonous traitor, others say that he should be given a job consulting with the government on surveillance policy.

“At the very least, even if we don’t do that, we owe it to him to give him the opportunity to come home and carry on with his life,” says Cassidy.

Additionally, Cassidy says Snowden’s leaks worked to positively change the entire political climate that had been in effect from September 11, 2001, until his revelations in 2013.

“The politically safe thing to do before Snowden came along was to just let the NSA get on with it,” he says. “The default position for politicians of both parties was basically to give the spooks, the Pentagon, and the national security establishment whatever it wanted. What Snowden did — he changed the political calculus.”



(thanks to Free Duck for the clue to hit up the PRI website)
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 10 Jun, 2015 05:06 pm
@korkamann,
I'm just saying that blind allegiance to one's country government is for the narrow minded. Snowden had a broader view than that and he served his country well by betraying his oath. Moral choices are more complicated than just worshipping authority, IMHO.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Wed 10 Jun, 2015 05:10 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

I'm just saying that blind allegiance to one's country government is for the narrow minded. Snowden had a broader view than that and he served his country well by betraying his oath. Moral choices are more complicated than just worshipping authority, IMHO.

no one has pointed out to me a more moral response than what Snowden did. As with Polanski I dont see that he was obligated to subject himself to punishment handed out by an unjust government. Might is not always right, surely we know this.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Wed 10 Jun, 2015 05:13 pm
Snowden deserves a fair trial...so he has the opportunity to clear his name.

That is what I want to see him get...a fair trial.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Wed 10 Jun, 2015 05:17 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Why don't you give him?
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Wed 10 Jun, 2015 06:03 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Snowden deserves a fair trial...so he has the opportunity to clear his name.

That is what I want to see him get...a fair trial.

THere cant be a fair trial with the laws this fucked up, this much working against the interests of the citizens. What he needs, and what we need, is a fair deal, which may more may not include awarding him a metal.
 

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