42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 11:49 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
He broke laws…and that means he is a law-breaker. Law-breakers ought to stand trial...which is what I am advocating. I really do not understand why you are not.


It is incontestable fact, that every president from Truman on committed crimes against humanity.

Numerous presidents broke US law.

Frank is on record as saying that Bush should not be prosecuted because, essentially, the US is/was going thru a bit of a bad time.

Why do y'all let Frank get away with these hypocritical stands? Why are y'all afraid of presenting him with the facts? What is it with this conspiracy of silence, Izzy, JPB, Walter, Thomas, ... ?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 11:49 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Yeah, if it is unwilling to prosecute stuff like this, America should shut down.

Rather, if it's unable to uphold its constitution and treaties, shut down Guitmo and stop spying on the whole universe, the US should shut down.

Don't shoot the messenger.
JPB
 
  3  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 11:57 am
@Frank Apisa,
The purpose of asylum isn't to avoid prosecution, it's to avoid persecution. It's up to the country granting protection to determine if refusing to do so would result in the persecution of the applicant.

Snowden will be tried - in absentia, if necessary - and he will in all likelihood be found guilty of breaking the law and his oath of office. He's been striped of his passport, and an international dragnet that borders on the bizarre and ridiculous has ensued.

Forcing Bolivia's president to land in Austria and submit to a plane search on a rumor and risking an international incident (who knows where this will end up) is simply beyond the pale.

Everyone has the right to request asylum. Everyone. Asylum is granted when certain circumstances are present. It's debatable whether Snowden's case meets those circumstances (will he be persecuted or simply prosecuted?), but it's up to the country granting the asylum (or not) to determine his eligibility.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 12:04 pm
@Olivier5,
Yea, that's another one of Obama's promises not kept; to close Gitmo.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 12:17 pm
@JPB,
This Washington Post article does a pretty good job of describing all of the ins/outs/twists/turns of the requirements for granting (not seeking!) asylum.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 12:31 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
I said he broke laws and broke his oath of office.
He broke laws…and that means he is a law-breaker. Law-breakers ought to stand trial...which is what I am advocating. I really do not understand why you are not.
Just two days ago, we commemorated an anniversary of the most famous Germans who broke the law and their oaths of office ... the officers of the 20 July plot ... (Actually, the had to kill Hitler to free others from the oaths of allegiance.)


And????
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 12:40 pm
@JPB,
So, simply put, they have to determine whether it's political or criminal, but any country can bend the rules to provide asylum.

Good article.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 12:41 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Law breakers like Rosa Parks?


That apparently is a question…but I do not understand what you are asking me to answer.

If you are comparing Snowden to Rosa Parks...it is an incredible insult to Rosa Parks.



Quote:
When the rich and powerful abuse their power standing up to them is not a crime.



Breaking the laws of the nation are crimes. Sorry you cannot see that, but I cannot help you with that.


Quote:
That's why there's a difference between ethics and jurisprudence.


Your point?


Quote:

more to the point, can he get a fair trial in America?




I think he can. When he is captured and returned for trial...my guess is it will be a fair trial. I suspect you do not want to see him get a "fair" trial.


Quote:
It's a matter of record that Bradley Manning has been tortured. Wayward spies get tortured in America.


Spies sometimes get tortured, but. I think most of the supposed Bradley Manning “torture” was exaggerated.


Frank wrote:
Is that something you just made up? I do not have any idea of where that comes from?


It's an observation based on what you've said on this one thread and your no comment approach to the thread I linked. If you think criminals who break the law should be punished then America should deport Robert Seldon Lady to Italy.

I never participated in that thread that I can remember...and if you are using that to make the assumption you did, you are being illogical.

Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 12:42 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Yeah, if it is unwilling to prosecute stuff like this, America should shut down.

Rather, if it's unable to uphold its constitution and treaties, shut down Guitmo and stop spying on the whole universe, the US should shut down.

Don't shoot the messenger.


Not shooting the messenger here, Olivier. I am saying that Snowden broke the laws of the United States and rightly ought to be brought to trial.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 12:44 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

The purpose of asylum isn't to avoid prosecution, it's to avoid persecution. It's up to the country granting protection to determine if refusing to do so would result in the persecution of the applicant.

Snowden will be tried - in absentia, if necessary - and he will in all likelihood be found guilty of breaking the law and his oath of office. He's been striped of his passport, and an international dragnet that borders on the bizarre and ridiculous has ensued.

Forcing Bolivia's president to land in Austria and submit to a plane search on a rumor and risking an international incident (who knows where this will end up) is simply beyond the pale.

Everyone has the right to request asylum. Everyone. Asylum is granted when certain circumstances are present. It's debatable whether Snowden's case meets those circumstances (will he be persecuted or simply prosecuted?), but it's up to the country granting the asylum (or not) to determine his eligibility.


As has been noted, we have different perspectives on this. I think Snowden should be brought to trial. If found guilty, the appropriate punishment should prevail.

If you think otherwise...fine.
JTT
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 12:56 pm
@JPB,
The US only goes to the rule of law when it provides aid to their widespread illegal activities, JPB.


Quote:

http://williamblum.org/chapters/killing-hope/ecuador

Ecuador, 1960 to 1963: A Textbook of Dirty Tricks


If the Guinness Book of World Records included a category for “cynicism”, one could suggest the CIA’s creation of “leftist” organizations which condemned poverty, disease, illiteracy, capitalism, and the United States in order to attract committed militants and their money away from legitimate leftist organizations.

The tiny nation of Ecuador in the early 1960s was, as it remains today, a classic of banana-republic underdevelopment; virtually at the bottom of the economic heap in South America; a society in which one percent of the population received an income comparable to United States upper-class standards, while two-thirds of the people had an average family income of about ten dollars per month – people simply outside the money economy, with little social integration or participation in the national life; a tale told many times in Latin America.

In September 1960, a new government headed by José María Velasco Ibarra came to power. Velasco had won a decisive electoral victory, running on a vaguely liberal, populist, something-for-everyone platform. He was no Fidel Castro, he was not even a socialist, but he earned the wrath of the US State Department and the CIA by his unyielding opposition to the two stated priorities of American policy in Ecuador: breaking relations with Cuba, and clamping down hard on activists of the Communist Party and those to their left.

Over the next three years, in pursuit of those goals, the CIA left as little as possible to chance. A veritable textbook on covert subversion techniques unfolded. In its pages could be found the following, based upon the experiences of Philip Agee, a CIA officer who spent this period in Ecuador. 1 )

Almost all political organizations of significance, from the far left to the far right, were infiltrated, often at the highest levels. Amongst other reasons, the left was infiltrated to channel young radicals away from support to Cuba and from anti-Americanism; the right, to instigate and co-ordinate activities along the lines of CIA priorities. If, at a point in time, there was no organization that appeared well-suited to serve a particular need, then one would be created.

Or a new group of “concerned citizens” would appear, fronted with noted personalities, which might place a series of notices in leading newspapers denouncing the penetration of the government by the extreme left and demanding a break with Cuba. Or one of the noted personalities would deliver a speech prepared by the CIA, and then a newspaper editor, or a well-known columnist, would praise it, both gentlemen being on the CIA payroll.

Some of these fronts had an actual existence; for others, even their existence was phoney. On one occasion, the CIA Officer who had created the non-existent “Ecuadorean Anti-Communist Front” was surprised to read in his morning paper that a real organization with that name had been founded. He changed the name of his organization to “Ecuadorean Anti-Communist Action”.

Wooing the working class came in for special emphasis. An alphabet-soup of labor organizations, sometimes hardly more than names on stationery, were created, altered, combined, liquidated, and new ones created again, in an almost frenzied attempt to find the right combination to compete with existing left-oriented unions and take national leadership away from them. Union leaders were invited to attend various classes conducted by the CIA in Ecuador or in the United States, all expenses paid, in order to impart to them the dangers of communism to the union movement and to select potential agents.

This effort was not without its irony either. CIA agents would sometimes jealously vie with each other for the best positions in these CIA-created labor organizations; and at times Ecuadorean organizations would meet in “international conferences” with CIA labor fronts from other countries, with almost all of the participants blissfully unaware of who was who or what was what.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 01:06 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Both Rosa Parks and Snowden have broken the law standing up to an abuse of power at great personal cost. I think the comparison is apt, otherwise I wouldn't have used it.

Quote:
Spies sometimes get tortured, but. I think most of the supposed Bradley Manning “torture” was exaggerated.


With respect Frank, I think that Juan Mendez, the UN special rapporteur on torture knows a lot more than you or me about torture. He described Manning's treatment as 'cruel, inhuman and degrading.' If you want to dismiss expert testimony that's down to you.

Quote:
Breaking the laws of the nation are crimes. Sorry you cannot see that, but I cannot help you with that.


Now, maybe I was making too much of your silence on the other thread, but you still haven't answered my question. If you believe the above then shouldn't Robert Seldon Lady be deported to Italy for breaking Italian law the same way that Snowden should be deported to America.
JTT
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 01:08 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Law-breakers ought to stand trial...which is what I am advocating. I really do not understand why you are not.



"stressing that the US had denied the extradition of several Ecuadorian bankers charged in Ecuador."

Quote:
RT Analysis:

Paradox

He stressed that the Ecuadorian government puts human rights above any other party’s interests. Patino also said it is “paradoxical” the person who revealed alleged rights violations is being “persecuted.”

“It should be asked, who betrayed whom,” Patino stressed as he questioned the correctness of calling Snowden’s leak a “treason.”

“Is this betraying the citizens of the world, or betraying some elites that are in power in a certain country?” the Minister asked.

International Violation

The alleged US espionage plan would be violating the rights of “every citizen in the world,” Patino said, referring to Snowden’s claim that the US agencies are “intercepting the majority world’s communications.”

U.S.-Equador Dialogue

The Ecuadorian Constitution guarantees the safety of people who publish opinions through the media and work in any form of communication, Patino stressed.

Meanwhile, Ecuador is also considering a US request related to Snowden, which it received from the US envoy in Quito. Patino said the decision would come in due time.

“The relationship between the US and Ecuador should be based on respect for the sovereignty of both countries and our actions are founded on our principles. We consider the consequences of our decisions, but we act in the name of our principles,” said the Minister, stressing that the US had denied the extradition of several Ecuadorian bankers charged in Ecuador.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 01:11 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
As has been noted, we have different perspectives on this. I think Snowden should be brought to trial. If found guilty, the appropriate punishment should prevail.


You're ignoring the illegal actions committed by a rogue nation, the USA, to use force rather than the rule of law to get what it wants.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 01:17 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
And????
What I mean is that there are often (personal) reasons to break a law and/or an oath.

It is is sad but true: whistleblower protection is mostly non-existent and illusory. Only six countries in Europe have any type of dedicated whistleblower legislation - Germany is not among those (mainly, because the protecting laws are split in different laws). But we got a European Court of Human Rights ruling that German case law relating to whistleblowing violated the right to freedom of expression. The decision will lead to the introduction of new legislation to protect whistleblowers from dismissal ... especially now.
JTT
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 01:34 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I am saying that Snowden broke the laws of the United States and rightly ought to be brought to trial.


Quote:

http://www.workers.org/2013/07/10/refusal-to-extradite-terrorist-to-venezuela-exposes-washingtons-hypocrisy/

Refusal to extradite terrorist to Venezuela exposes Washington’s hypocrisy

By Gene Clancy on July 10, 2013

The Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela has once again issued a call for the extradition of Luis Posada Carriles, an internationally infamous murderer and terrorist who, among his many crimes, bombed a Cuban airliner in 1976.

This request comes even as the United States is engaged in unprecedented efforts to bully nations around the world into refusing to offer political asylum to Edward Snowden, a former CIA contract worker who has released documents showing widespread spying by the National Security Agency on millions of U.S citizens and on governments and civilians around the world, including U.S. allies.

Venezuela, along with several other countries, has also indicated that it is willing to offer political asylum to Snowden.

Posada Carriles has proven himself to be a butcher and terrorist many times over. In addition to the 1976 bombing, Carriles has bragged about a series of deadly bombings of hotels and nightclubs in Havana, Cuba, in 1997. As part of a still secret career with the CIA, he participated in the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba, and the Iran-Contra Affair, in which the U.S. secretly sold missiles to Iran to raise money to send arms to the infamous “contras’ who were fighting the progressive government of Nicaragua.

In 2011, Venezuela’s Ministry of Public Affairs announced that they had recently uncovered evidence of a reign of terror by Carriles while he was chief of operations of the DISIP, the infamous secret police organization of Venezuela that existed until the Bolivarian revolution led by Hugo Chávez. Included in his résumé of terror were several murders, and the horrendous torture of two women — one of whom was pregnant — who were repeatedly beaten and repeatedly subjected to near drowning.

Of course, the U.S. government has been well aware of Carriles’ activities for a long time.

Peter Kornbluh, of the National Security Archive project, was able to use the Freedom of Information Act to get many formerly secret documents pertaining to Carriles declassified. They show a long history of nefarious activities going back to 1961, punctuated by regular reports to high ranking government figures such as Henry Kissinger.

Spurred by worldwide condemnation, the U.S. government actually brought charges against Carriles in January 2011, but not for his real crimes. He was charged only with lying to immigration officials. He was acquitted of these charges by a Texas federal court in a jury trial.

The U.S. Justice Department expressed that it was “disappointed by the decision” of the jury in El Paso. But José Pertierra, the attorney who is representing the Venezuelan government in its efforts to extradite Carriles, told La Jornada: “I suggest that the United States government not feel so disappointed and extradite him instead.” (The Nation, March 2011)

The mainstream lapdog press which have hounded Edward Snowden with charges of “treasonous” espionage, and of “endangering people’s lives” have little to say about the extradition of real criminals like Luis Posada Carriles. Cases like this expose the real nature of imperialism.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 01:55 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Now, maybe I was making too much of your silence on the other thread, but you still haven't answered my question. If you believe the above then shouldn't Robert Seldon Lady be deported to Italy for breaking Italian law the same way that Snowden should be deported to America.


Quote:
The story of how a Milan CIA station chief became a fugitive, now caught in Panama
By Max Fisher

When Robert Seldon Lady first arrived in Milan, Italy’s fashion and business hub, he was officially listed as an employee of the U.S. State Department with the title of deputy consul. In fact, he was the head of the CIA’s Milan station. That was 2000. Within a few years, Lady would become an international fugitive on the run from Italian police; he would go from a highly respected CIA officer to, for many in Europe, a symbol of everything that was wrong with the United States’ war on terror and a means to publicly pressure the Bush administration.
On Thursday, Lady was detained in Panama, possibly to answer for the Italian extradition charges that have stood against him for years. The story of Lady’s journey over the past decade is controversial, disputed and full of holes. But it is a fascinating episode from a complicated period in U.S. foreign policy – one that, as his recent detention reminds us, isn’t so long ago as we might think.
Two good retellings of Lady’s downfall and the incident that so angered Italian officials are a well-reviewed 2010 book A Kidnapping in Milan: The CIA on Trial,” by journalist Steve Hendricks, and Matthew Cole’s exhaustive 2007 Esquire story. I’ve drawn from them both here.
After Sept. 11, 2001, CIA stations across much of Europe ramped up efforts to find and neutralize possible terrorist threats; several of the al-Qaeda operatives involved in the 2001 hijackings had originally operated out of Hamburg. Lady’s Milan station, working with Italian counterterrorism officials, dismantled three cells in northern Italy in just two years, according to Cole.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/07/18/the-story-of-how-a-milan-cia-station-chief-became-a-fugitive-now-caught-in-panama/
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 02:19 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Both Rosa Parks and Snowden have broken the law standing up to an abuse of power at great personal cost. I think the comparison is apt, otherwise I wouldn't have used it.

Quote:
Spies sometimes get tortured, but. I think most of the supposed Bradley Manning “torture” was exaggerated.


With respect Frank, I think that Juan Mendez, the UN special rapporteur on torture knows a lot more than you or me about torture. He described Manning's treatment as 'cruel, inhuman and degrading.' If you want to dismiss expert testimony that's down to you.

Quote:
Breaking the laws of the nation are crimes. Sorry you cannot see that, but I cannot help you with that.


Now, maybe I was making too much of your silence on the other thread, but you still haven't answered my question. If you believe the above then shouldn't Robert Seldon Lady be deported to Italy for breaking Italian law the same way that Snowden should be deported to America.



Izzy, we are not going to agree on this...and that is not unusual in contentious matters. Some people have one take on the issue and others have a take that essentially is in opposition. The matters would not be "contentious" if that were not the case.

I do not consider Snowden to be a heroic whistleblower any more than I consider George Zimmerman to be a heroic defender of a community.

Like almost everyone...my feelings about some of these things are not chiseled in stone…nor is there the kind of consistency you may be looking for. I can applaud the efforts of Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King, Jr. to oppose laws…while opposing with vehemence the efforts of people like Manning and Snowden to do what they have done.

I will never consider the actions of Manning and Snowden to be heroic. I am NOT saying they are traitors…I think that to be a step too far. But I am saying that a nation has a right to keep certain material secret…and I do not want people to arbitrarily decide they can divulge that material. Yes, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, the Mahatma Gandhi disobeyed laws…but Martin Luther King went to jail, Nelson Mandela went to jail, Gandhi went to jail for doing so.

I want to see our government make every effort possible to bring Snowden back to this country for a trial. I think he can and will get a “fair” trial. If found not guilty, I expect he will be released to go live wherever he wants to live; if convicted, I would want him subjected to the full extent of the law.

I understand that decent, intelligent, reasonable people disagree with me passionately on that…and want for that never to happen.

I hope we can disagree on this with reason and civility prevailing.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 02:22 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
And????
What I mean is that there are often (personal) reasons to break a law and/or an oath.

It is is sad but true: whistleblower protection is mostly non-existent and illusory. Only six countries in Europe have any type of dedicated whistleblower legislation - Germany is not among those (mainly, because the protecting laws are split in different laws). But we got a European Court of Human Rights ruling that German case law relating to whistleblowing violated the right to freedom of expression. The decision will lead to the introduction of new legislation to protect whistleblowers from dismissal ... especially now.


I understand, Walter. I just disagree. This was not, in my opinion, whistleblowing. This was disregard of law in a way that does more damage than any good that may come from it.

Once again...that simply is my opinion.

I notice that there are people in the George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin issue who consider George Zimmerman to be a hero...someone who should be commended and applauded for protecting his community.

I disagree there...and I most strongly disagree with the "heroic whistleblower" depiction of Snowden here.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 22 Jul, 2013 02:24 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Now, maybe I was making too much of your silence on the other thread, but you still haven't answered my question. If you believe the above then shouldn't Robert Seldon Lady be deported to Italy for breaking Italian law the same way that Snowden should be deported to America.


Honestly do not know enough about this to make any kind of statement. I do not know the incident or the particulars...and I am not especially interested...which probably accounts for my not participating in that thread.
 

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