Snowdon is a dummy

@engineer,

Worth repeating.

engineer wrote:

But when terrorists offer the slightest threat, we are ready to throw away our rights. Not only are you willing to do "whatever it takes", to give up your basic constitutional rights to reduce those four deaths to maybe two, you are willing to give up mine. Mine aren't for sale for a miniscule amount of security or the illusion of safety. They just aren't and even if you want to give up yours, you can't give up mine.

Moment-in-Time wrote:

Engineer, my husband and I are two Americans who simply do not care if we are spied on; we don't have anything to hide....we are transparent.

The idea that only those with something to hide have reason to want their private lives kept private and a government who actually follows it's own privacy laws is ludicrous. We're supposed to be the "land of the free and the home of the brave". It's a joke to think that we're either. The terrorists won the day the Patriot Act became law. We're terrified that two kids carrying backpacks may be plotting to do us harm. We're so brave that we send drones into sovereign airspaces and drop bombs hoping to hit an actual target and then feel "sorry" when we kill civilians who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's all ok, though, so long as none of our "brave" men and women are put at risk.

For me it comes down to who we say we are vs our current reality. We're a free (ha!) people who elect a government of career politicians in a corrupt process so that they can continue their corrupt and illegal ways.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank, why not respond properly to JTT's question?

Why do you malign those who tell Americans the truth?

Frank Apisa wrote:

JTT wrote:

Sorry, Frank I missed your response to.

Why is it that you show such respect for known liars, war criminals, terrorists, felons but you malign those who tell you the truth?

1 Reply

@JPB,

JPB wrote:

We're so brave that we send drones into sovereign airspaces and drop bombs hoping to hit an actual target

. . . and fire TV anchors for pointing out that that makes the American government a bunch of cowards, whereas the people who ran planes into skyscrapers and stayed on them were actually brave. I still have a man-crush on Bill Maher for saying that over a decade ago.

JPB wrote:

and then feel "sorry" when we kill civilians who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

About thirty September-11s worth of killings, if you include the more conventional airstrikes, just to quantify it.

Thank goodness for people like Snowdon and Assange for exposing the US government's crimes.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

If all your security is illusion, what harm has the NSA done to you? What did you really give up? Please be succinct.

How would I know? Anyone who knows this information would commit a crime by telling me . But I can't conclude from this that the NSA has done me no harm, just as I can't conclude I don't have cancer just because my doctor hasn't examined or diagnosed me.

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@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

I agree. I don't understand why more Americans are not really really angry about this.

Because most Americans (that I know of) are either apathetic about politics or in a hyper-partisan mindset. And the strange thing about American partisanship its that it recognizes only two alternatives. Partisanship against one big party automatically translates into partisanship for the other. Hence, any disapproval of Democratic conduct is seen as approval for Republicans. I think that's why many American liberals feel unfree to criticize Democrats from the left. There's no way American liberals would sneer at Snowden like this if president McCain or president Romney had ordered the surveillance.

Good for you, Canadians, that you recently shitcanned one party in your two-party system and brought in another! I wish America did the same, but I tend to get very irate reactions from Americans for suggesting it. When Americans discover that the Democratic Party is dispensable, and that they can swap it out for a liberal alternative, America just might become a better, less-snooped-on place.

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@RABEL222,

Quote:

Why are you surprised that the republicans who started all this **** in the first place agree that Snowden was wrong to inform the American people what the government was doing to their constitutional freedoms.

Hiya, Rabel, Happy 4th! The reason I was surprised at the GOP agreeing with the Obama admin is simply because up until now they, the Republicans, have been obstructionists in every sense of the word; they have wanted this particular president to fail and they have worked unstintingly to do just that; however, the calling for Snowden's head at the same time the Obama administration had been embarrassed and wanted the rogue hacker to shut up was quite the surprise.

I am in no position to call the shots regarding the National Security Agency's spying on Americans, and initially, when hearing of this under the GWB/Cheney administration, I was horrified, primarily because I'm bias against Republicans. After 9/11 I had a different perspective. I am a native New Yorker and reside not too far from the WTC tragedy. The acrid smell permeated the air for days and the reddish rainbow of airline gas streaked across the sky, seemingly forever. The disaster impacted many New Yorkers and lingers with me still.

Our society is evolving, and many errors will be made until we get it right. There is no such thing as a perfect society, we learn by trial and error. Given the amount of information the government has on us, I fail to see where monitoring certain calls will make that much of a difference. If the system had been in place prior to 9/11, it's a possibility that calamity might not have happened. But then again there are so many conspiracy theories that Bush the younger did not want to stop it so he could have a reason to invade Iraq, a sovereign nation, and no threat to the US.

1 Reply

@Moment-in-Time,

Moment-in-Time wrote:

I am in no position to call the shots regarding the National Security Agency's spying on Americans, and initially, when hearing of this under the GWB/Cheney administration, I was horrified, primarily because I'm bias against Republicans. After 9/11 I had a different perspective. I am a native New Yorker and reside not too far from the WTC tragedy. The acrid smell permeated the air for days and the reddish rainbow of airline gas streaked across the sky, seemingly forever. The disaster impacted many New Yorkers and lingers with me still.

One of the stated goals of 9/11 was to let Americans know what it feels like to have bombs drop out of the skies and have towers fall around us. We didn't get the message. Any hope that we'd rise up against our own government and demand we stop doing what had just been done to us was naive. The fact that the "acrid smell and reddish rainbow" impacted many New Yorkers and lingers still, but yet didn't result in you standing up to scream "STOP DOING THIS ELSEWHERE" demonstrates the American self-interest that is so obvious to everyone else in the world. We simply can't (or refuse to) see who we really are.

ci asks what the NSA has done to me personally. They've proven that JTT has been right all along. You can imagine how much that pisses me off.

3 Replies

@JPB,

Quote:

The idea that only those with something to hide have reason to want their private lives kept private and a government who actually follows it's own privacy laws is ludicrous.

That's not it all. I mentioned my husband and I have nothing to hide, but even if we did, it would not alter my present views. I sincerely believe whatever methodology the government implements to keep Americans safe is warranted. Now that is MY PERSONAL OPINION. I'm not going to lampoon you because you hold a different viewpoint.

JPB wrote:

Quote:

We're supposed to be the "land of the free and the home of the brave". It's a joke to think that we're either.

Hear! Hear! One can tell by the way the citizens are treated what type of nation it is. In some parts of the deep south today Republican Governors are implementing a counterpart of the Taliban's Sharia Law, mandating laws against women and their bodies regarding abortion. It began in Texas and now its the epicenter of the Republicans' attack on American women under most Republican governors!!!!

JPB wrote:

Quote:

The terrorists won the day the Patriot Act became law. We're terrified that two kids carrying backpacks may be plotting to do us harm. We're so brave that we send drones into sovereign airspaces and drop bombs hoping to hit an actual target and then feel "sorry" when we kill civilians who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's all ok, though, so long as none of our "brave" men and women are put at risk.

And we should be afraid because of our bad policies in the middle east. When we invaded Iraq, we killed approximately 113,241 – 123,968 Iraqis, and displaced many. We broke that country so bad it's still hemorrhaging. The US need for oil has created many enemies in that region of the world and the future simply is not safe for the American people....

JPB wrote:

Quote:

For me it comes down to who we say we are vs our current reality. We're a free (ha!) people who elect a government of career politicians in a corrupt process so that they can continue their corrupt and illegal ways.

Oh don't get me started on these corrupt US politicians who would throw their mother under the bus to stay in power. This is why we're losing respect all over the world. It's a power hungry congress where they go to make deals to fatten the bank accounts. This current Republican Party would dearly love to balance the US economy on the backs of the poor while not taxing the rich and super rich at all!

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@JPB,

JPB wrote:

One of the stated goals of 9/11 was to let Americans know what it feels like to have bombs drop out of the skies and have towers fall around us...

Actually, in 2002, Osama bin Laden published his manifesto, "Letter to the American People" and stated that his motive for 9/11 was that we have not accepted Islam.

Furthermore, there is a difference between deliberately attacking civilians as the actual intended targets, and targeting soldiers, but accidentally killing some civilians, as in all wars since the beginning of time.

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

That's absolutely not true. That is in the section of what he calls us to do (come to Islam), but it is nowhere in the section under "why".

Quote:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.
Full text

anyway... back to Snowdon, who I don't believe is any dummy. I also don't believe he's a hero in the Daniel Ellsberg realm. I don't see that he's a traitor either. It's too soon to know what he's about.

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@engineer,

How are they going to have "probable cause" without first looking for it?

If they have no information about crimes being committed, how do they pursue it?

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@cicerone imposter,

So everyone should be taken generally as a suspect of any crime.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

How are they going to have "probable cause" without first looking for it?

The same way they did it the 230 years before they had the Patriot Act - with decent detective work and judicial oversight.

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A couple of pages back, this transpired.

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

They can knock on your door if they have proof of crime being perpetrated through your internet connections.

That's what they're supposed to do if you're breaking any laws of fraud or any other unlawful activity.

Yes, I'll be okay with that! But they'd better be damn sure I broke the law.

ehBeth wrote,

Quote:

the point is that is not what NSA is doing - it is digging into your business before there is any suggestion you've done anything wrong

After thinking about this whole issue, and what ehBeth wrote, I reverse my original opinion about "it's okay for NSA to snoop into our private lives."

I now find it quite disgusting after relating it to the Zimmerman case. Zimmerman thought Martin was up to no good even though he had no evidence of it, and Martin had every right to be walking in that neighborhood where his father lived.

The NSA is doing the same thing; making the assumption that we're all criminals before the fact, and overstepping our Constitutional rights to PRIVACY.

Sorry, you all! I was wrong, and you guys are right.

5 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

Happy Fourth, CI.

0 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

CI, I know I'm about to touch upon a sore spot of yours, and I know that personal arguments are usually not okay in political discussions. So I apologize in advance for both, ok?

. . . But . . .

I can't help wondering: We are talking about the US government here --- the same government that ruined your childhood by locking you up in a concentration camp for no good reason. The only bad reason it had was your Japanese descent. How can you be so complacent about this government's current abuses of power? And why do you sneer at people, however colorful and flawed, who expose its abuses?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Oops, I missed your last post. Please feel free to ignore mine.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

OMG, ci! How can you of all people suggest that it's ok to assume its citizens are criminals or traitors?!?!?!?

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Oops, I missed your last post. Please feel free to ignore mine.

Me too.

0 Replies

@Thomas,

I can understand the time and place about what happened to us during WWII; it was a FAILURE OF OUR GOVERNMENT to protect our Constitutional rights. That has happened to other minorities and women until now, and don't see much that will change when governments fail to live up to the Constitutional rights to EQUALITY. Many state governments are taking away a woman's right to control their own bodies.

It's no excuse, but in the late fifties, I was required to sign a confidentiality statement in addition to swearing to the same verbally, because I was provided with a TOP SECRET clearance to work with nuclear weapons.

That experience had been cemented into my brain; that government secrets must be kept secret at all cost, and that influenced my thinking for half a century.

These are different times when warfare is no longer the same as when I was in the service. The Taliban isn't a country, and they are spread out in many countries in the Middle East. Military strategies had to change.

Fast forward to today: I don't trust Obama all that much, and have experienced many disappointments with his actions, but I must also confess that I prefer him over Romney.

I have expressed many of my disappointments about Obama on a2k. They are there for the "record."

1 Reply

Snowdon is a dummy

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