Snowdon is a dummy

@Frank Apisa,

My country is as dirty as any other. We've done lots of bad things. But we are not currently holding dozens of innocent people in boundage and torture, without trial, indefinitly in legal no man's land, while saying that we would want to stop but hey... life is complicated so we can't. You guys are doing that.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

My country is as dirty as any other. We've done lots of bad things. But we are not currently holding dozens of innocent people in boundage and torture, without trial, indefinitly in legal no man's land, while saying that we would want to stop but hey... life is complicated so we can't. You guys are doing that.

If you want to think that America, its citizens, and its political structure are particularly loathsome...and do not care about the problems to which you refer...there is not much I or anyone else can do about that. You certainly are free to continue to feel that way.

As I said, there are many Americans here who agree with you.

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@Frank Apisa,

And if you want to think that you have no moral obligations towards Gitmo inmates because 'it's complicated', nobody is stopping you either...

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

And if you want to think that you have no moral obligations towards Gitmo inmates because 'it's complicated', nobody is stopping you either...

If you want to think I am some kind of unconcerned, scumbag with no moral concerns because I mention the political and strategic difficulties in getting things like this done...you are free to do so.

As I said, too bad we humans do not have the likes of you leading us. Obviously you know how to deal with this stuff...and would get it done.

1 Reply

This topic deserves it's thread, however, I think we should just own up to the fact the US is deservedly in the wrong concerning Guantanamo. I haven't given up on Obama defying those in congress who are against the closing of Guantanamo but I have to admit I don't know what they can do with those prisoners who are dangerous but the evidence was gotten through illegal means and so is not admissible in US courts. Also some we just don't have enough evidence. Some of you say, the problem is simple, just release them to the countries of their birth. Some of those who have been released have vowed to take arms again, which would put US and NATO allies who are still in Afghanistan in harms way. Soon the war in Afghanistan will effectively be over as far as combat, so perhaps then, the danger would not be so great.

I know none of you take the US's word for anything, however, they have said and signed, they do not or condone torture anywhere including Guantanamo on Obama's watch so to speak.

I am hopeful that Guantanamo will be closed and on the day it is closed, a speech of some sort will made recognizing past wrongs. I realize that does not mean diddly to most of you, but it will to me.

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@revelette2,

Many have and will continue to take arms against the US and our allies. That they threaten to return to violence can't be controlled by putting them into prison; that's logistically impossible. We are ready to fight them on the battle field; we have the largest military in the world - bar none.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

As I said, too bad we humans do not have the likes of you leading us. Obviously you know how to deal with this stuff...and would get it done.

At least I would try, rather than wash my hand with it....

Someone needs to send Obama and a few US congressmen to Gitmo for a week or two, as inmates, complete with the force feeding through nose tubes 3 times a day and all. Just to remind them that this shame is going on.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
As I said, too bad we humans do not have the likes of you leading us. Obviously you know how to deal with this stuff...and would get it done.

At least I would try, rather than wash my hand with it....

Someone needs to send Obama and a few US congressmen to Gitmo for a week or two, as inmates, complete with the force feeding through nose tubes 3 times a day and all. Just to remind them that this shame is going on.

Yup...I am sure you would do much better than they...you have such refined and reasonable ideas and expectations.

You go, lad.

1 Reply

@revelette2,

Your continued trust in our government under all the lies they have told the American people and the world is an amazing feat. How often does your spouse lie to you? Has he killed anyone with his lies?

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@Frank Apisa,

You don't like my idea of jailing Barak Obama and John Boehner in Gitmo? Why?

Then we could quietly discuss how immensly complicated it would to try and free them, and conclude with a grave face that, as much as it grieves us, we need to keep them in there until their death...

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

You don't like my idea of jailing Barak Obama and John Boehner in Gitmo? Why?

Then we could quietly discuss how immensly complicated it would to try and free them, and conclude with a grave face that, as much as it grieves us, we need to keep them in there until their death...

You'd probably be the mouse who'd come up with the idea of, "Let's put a bell on the cat...so when he comes around, we will be warned!"

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I just love the idea of turning the table on them pontificating assholes. I'm sure orange will suit Obama and Boehner well.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I just love the idea of turning the table on them pontificating assholes. I'm sure orange will suit Obama and Boehner well.

So you think the same problems with releasing the current prisoners would apply to them???

You did not take your genius pills today, Olivier. You probably did not take them yesterday either.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Why should Uruguay have to bail out America? It's America's mess so America should sort it out.

I presume that was written by izzy since it's who it says you are replying to.

America is not in any sort of mess, and is not asking to be bailed out.

If the Yemeni low-level militants spend the rest of their lives at Guantanamo, that is perfectly fine.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Not saying it is easy, just saying the US could not care less,

Maybe the detainees shouldn't have done 9/11 if they didn't want to be detainees.

Olivier5 wrote:

it wants to forget about these guys

There is nothing wrong with thinking about them.

Olivier5 wrote:

and would rather let them, including the many innocents among them, rot in there until they die rather than spend the political capital necessary to free them.

All sorts of things wrong with this part.

First, the whole "guilt verses innocence" thing is for criminal matters. This is a case of POWs being detained until the end of the war.

Second, those who were deemed to not be enemy soldiers have been released long ago. There are no longer any such people being detained at Guantanamo.

Third, that whole "spending political capital" thing doesn't make any sense. Some of the detainees, we resolutely intend to never release. Other detainees would be released if there were a place to release them to. Political capital isn't a factor in either case.

Olivier5 wrote:

God forbid the career of anyone in Washington take the slightest shot. Better keep innocent people in prison without trial forever.

Again, the whole "guilt verses innocence" thing applies to criminal matters. Everyone who is currently at Guantanamo is legitimately there as a captured enemy fighter.

Trials have nothing to do with the detention of POWs until the end of the war.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

My country is as dirty as any other. We've done lots of bad things. But we are not currently holding dozens of innocent people in boundage and torture, without trial, indefinitly in legal no man's land, while saying that we would want to stop but hey... life is complicated so we can't. You guys are doing that.

There is no torture at Guantanamo. All the torture in Cuba happens in Castro's dungeons.

And once again, "guilt verses innocence" has nothing to do with the detention of POWs until the end of the war. All the detainees currently at Guantanamo are legitimately there as captured enemy fighters.

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@oralloy,

GWBush knew about the potential threat by al Quida before that event happened, and did nothing to prevent it.

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@revelette2,

revelette2 wrote:

however, I think we should just own up to the fact the US is deservedly in the wrong concerning Guantanamo.

Nonsense. We have every right to detain captured enemy soldiers until the end of the war.

revelette2 wrote:

I have to admit I don't know what they can do with those prisoners who are dangerous but the evidence was gotten through illegal means and so is not admissible in US courts. Also some we just don't have enough evidence.

What we can do is detain them until the end of the war.

We have every right to detain captured enemy fighters until the end of the war.

revelette2 wrote:

Some of you say, the problem is simple, just release them to the countries of their birth.

I wouldn't recommend listening to anyone who says we should hand Chinese dissidents over to the Chinese government so that they can be murdered and have their organs harvested.

I also wouldn't recommend listening to anyone who says we should release hardcore terrorists.

revelette2 wrote:

I know none of you take the US's word for anything, however, they have said and signed, they do not or condone torture anywhere including Guantanamo on Obama's watch so to speak.

There was no torture at Guantanamo on Bush's watch either.

revelette2 wrote:

I am hopeful that Guantanamo will be closed and on the day it is closed, a speech of some sort will made recognizing past wrongs. I realize that does not mean diddly to most of you, but it will to me.

It is not wrong for the US to detain captured enemy fighters until the end of the war. We have every right to do so.

Hopefully if Guantanamo is closed it will be paid for by a stiff tax on Liberalism, so that normal people will not have to pay for it.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Yes, the US has the right to detain prisoners of war, but it's against domestic and international laws to torture them. They keep gitmo, because it's not US territory, and the government have no control over foreign soil when it comes to torture.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

If you want to think that America, its citizens, and its political structure are particularly loathsome...and do not care about the problems to which you refer...there is not much I or anyone else can do about that. You certainly are free to continue to feel that way.

As I said, there are many Americans here who agree with you.

Based on the conversations in this thread, I've concluded that there may be more to you then I've previously concluded. I certainly object to all your lies in some of the other threads, but I'm going to risk taking you off ignore.

Perhaps you don't care if I have you on ignore or not. But it seems courteous to inform you.

1 Reply

Snowdon is a dummy

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