42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 01:17 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You guys are digging the grave of America's democracy, and if you succeed in burring it, it would be a disaster not only to you, but to the rest of the world, me included. So there's no wishful thinking from me here, just a little more lucidity than you can summon.
revelette2
 
  2  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 01:21 pm
@ossobuco,
I don't understand why people can't understand. lol. Anyway, no one thinks anyone who appreciates what Snowden did are haters of the country. What Frank and others have said people who day after keep going on about how horrible our country is and is never going to get better... seem to hate the country and perhaps they should move where they would like it better.

I have said it seems a hundred I understand a lot of folks feel differently about this privacy issue and personally I am fine with people have a difference of opinion. Wish some of ya'll felt the same is all I have been saying. I really don't like being called a punk simply because I thought Snowden draped in flag with a somewhat vacant look to his face was cheesy. I just found it dorky, really wasn't any deeper than that and Oliver got all touchy over it and started calling us punks. I think some of you guys need to chill out a little and quit with the chicken little the sky is falling stuff.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 01:24 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

You guys are digging the grave of America's democracy, and if you succeed in burring it, it would be a disaster not only to you, but to the rest of the world, me included. So there's no wishful thinking from me here, just a little more lucidity than you can summon.



Yeah, I can understand you wanting to deny the hopeful thinking aspect...sorta like ci denying that he detests this country.

Snowden is more logically charged with "digging the grave of American democracy" than those of us who advocate for a fair trial for the guy.,

But you are blinded to that...and I guess you have to go with your myopic view.

Good luck with it! Wink
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 01:27 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:

You are just calling "rats" people who are risking their lives to save the US democracy. Oh well...


Dear me, Olivier, did I infer the honorable Edward Snowden was a "rat." Like how could I? Someone as noble a creature like Snowden with no ulterior objectives for what he did. To censor him, well now that is beneath me! What I truly intended to say is Snowden has the characteristics of said animal.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 01:36 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:

Dear me, Olivier, did I infer the honorable Edward Snowden was a "rat."


No, you implied it.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 01:52 pm
@revelette2,
Quote:
quit with the chicken little the sky is falling stuff.

As soon as the punks quit with the "Snowden is a traitor" and "dissenters hate America" stuff... Smile
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 01:52 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:

Snowden is much less interested in himself than you are interested in him. That's because all you want to do is character assassination... this obsession of yours with his alleged narcissism is akin to shooting the messenger.


It truly is amazing how you have twisted things, Oliver5. I am defending my position and am the one constantly under attack just for that. YOU seem not to acknowledge that I have the right to oppose Snowden's actions and also to speak out. Every American on this board who is opposed to what Snowden did is attacked furiously by you and some others. Why cannot you just respect my opinion that I am opposed to Snowden's betrayal of his country, that of sneaking out of the country with millions of classified NSA documents. In order to find out what he took which appear to be in the millions, I have to wait for Glenn Greenwald, a journalist and one or two others to post these American documents at their pleasure.

No one in America authorized Greenwald to be judge and jury over US documents.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 01:53 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:
What I truly intended to say is Snowden has the characteristics of said animal.

And you have the characteristics of another animal, the ostrich...
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  0  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 02:01 pm
Through the thirties in Germany and some neighboring nations, Jews were likened to rats. This isn't a good way to think. The purpose of such analogy is obvious but it is intellectually crippling to those who engage in it.
revelette2
 
  2  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 02:03 pm
@blatham,
I am thinking, what's that law, Goodwin's? The first person to refer to Hitler in a debate, looses?
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 02:07 pm
@revelette2,
You don't understand Godwin.
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 02:10 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:

Errr... You mean since reporters Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward relayed a whistle blower's information about Nixon's spying on other politicians. These damn reporters from the Washington post did a lot of damage to America's reputation, didn't they?..


That was an internal US problem, and did not concern other countries. Also, the US government changes its leadership every 4 or 8 years depending if the incumbent gets elected for a second term. Richard Nixon was a crook, just like George W Bush who stole the American presidential election in 2000. Ronald Reagan was an actor, and believe it or not, despite the Republican Party declaring RR a god, he was a lousy president, one who entered the presidency with a progressive mental deterioration, i.e., Alzheimer's disease. Sometimes the US get good leaders, like Bill Clinton,Lyndon B Johnson, Jimmy Carter, and the government tend to reflect the administration leaders at the time. The unqualified George W Bush truly tarnished America's image. By the US destabilizing Iraq, which Saddam Hussein kept in order, the Bush/Cheney inadvertently brought about ISIS.

Mr. Edward Snowden decided to take matters in his own hand and sneak out of the country, giving these documents to others. Snowden signed a loyalty oath or else he would not have been placed in such a sensitive position. The extent of the damage this rogue contractor caused has yet to be seen.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  4  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 02:15 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. What seems to be the problem?

I don't care who authorized Snowden and Greenwald. Nobody authorized the US to spy on me either. What I care for is the information Snowden provides us with, e.g. regarding how the communications of Palestinians residing in the US are routinely passed on to MOSSAD, or how the sexual orientations of political American activists are spied upon as a way to pressure them. All these would not be known were it not for Snowden, and I want to know.

You, as I gathered, do not want to know...
revelette2
 
  3  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 02:18 pm
@blatham,
Seems to be a habit with some folks, saying I don't understand. OK, I'll look it up.

Quote:
A term that originated on Usenet, Godwin's Law states that as an online argument grows longer and more heated, it becomes increasingly likely that somebody will bring up Adolf Hitler or the Nazis. When such an event occurs, the person guilty of invoking Godwin's Law has effectively forfieted the argument.

"Dude, shut up. Nobody cares what you think."

"Oh, so now you're trying to censor me? Go to hell, you damn Nazi!"


Pretty sure I do understand it.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 02:27 pm
@revelette2,
Comparing human being to rats is reminiscent of the Nazis. Those who do so should at the very least not take umbrage when being called "punks".
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 02:28 pm
@Olivier5,
They wouldn't know a tyrant if they saw one! LOL
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 02:32 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Here's an excellent article on "mores, laws and morality." It will be over the heads of many who still believes breaking one law is okay for society.

http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialSciences/ppecorino/INTRO_TEXT/Chapter%208%20Ethics/Mores_Law_Morality.htm
revelette2
 
  2  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 02:43 pm
@Olivier5,
I do believe you called us punks before rats was mentioned. Go back and read it. Godwin's law still applies.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 02:48 pm
@revelette2,
So you guys object to being called "punks", but calling people "rats" is okay? Okay, I'll call you "rats' from now on.
revelette2
 
  3  
Wed 3 Sep, 2014 02:53 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:

As we all scramble to become cybersecurity scholars, here's a handy guide to Section 215, the part of the Patriot Act that authorized the National Security Agency to collect cell data from Verizon and also possibly data for its PRISM program.


What is Section 215?

To understand Section 215, you first need to read Section 103(a) of the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which established the FISA court system that grants the government permission to conduct electronic surveillance.

The relevant section:

The Chief Justice of the United States shall publicly designate seven district court judges from seven of the United States judicial circuits who shall constitute a court which shall have jurisdiction to hear applications for and grant orders approving electronic surveillance anywhere within the United States under the procedures set forth in this Act, except that no judge designated under this subsection shall hear the same application for electronic surveillance under this Act which has been denied previously by another judge designated under this subsection.


Under Section 215, the government can apply to the FISA court to compel businesses (like Verizon) to hand over user records. Here's what Slate wrote about Section 215 in a 2003 guide to the Patriot Act:



Section 215 modifies the rules on records searches. Post-Patriot Act, third-party holders of your financial, library, travel, video rental, phone, medical, church, synagogue, and mosque records can be searched without your knowledge or consent, providing the government says it's trying to protect against terrorism.


As Section 215 stands today—in the reauthorized version of the Patriot Act passed in 2005—"tangible things" (aka user data) sought in a FISA order "must be 'relevant' to an authorized preliminary or full investigation to obtain foreign intelligence information not concerning a U.S. person or to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities." It also established congressional oversight for the FISA program, requiring the DOJ to conduct an audit of the program and the "effectiveness" of Section 215, and to submit an unclassified report on the audit to the House and Senate Committees on the Judiciary and Intelligence.



That was during the Bush administration. How has the Patriot Act changed since President Obama was elected?


Not very much. Sen. Obama voted to reauthorize the Patriot Act in 2005, a decision he defended on the campaign trail in 2008 with the caveat that some provisions contained in Section 215, like allowing the government to go through citizens' library records, "went way overboard." But in 2011 President Obama signed a bill to extend the Patriot Act's sunset clause to June 1, 2015—with Section 215 intact in its 2005 form.



Did the NSA also use Section 215 to obtain Internet data for its PRISM program?



This is less clear, but the leaked PRISM program documents seem to indicate yes. The PRISM presentation seems to imply that Section 215 applies not only to phone metadata but also to email, chats, photos, video, logins, and other online user data. Referring to the type of data the government is allowed to collect as "tangible things" allows a pretty wide berth for interpretation.



source
Consider in our country, congress makes the laws and they passed the Patriot Act, no laws were actually broken. The SC may rule it unconstitutional, but as of right now, no laws by NSA have been broken. In some people's minds, CI, a moral law may have been broken, but not legal laws.
 

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