Snowdon is a dummy

@RABEL222,

RABEL222 wrote:

@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

RABEL222 wrote:

No. You are right on. It is the people who piously say love it or leave it no matter how fuked up it is that dont understand democracy.

Name somebody here who has said "love it or leave it", Rabel.

No one here has suggested that...or even come close to doing so.

http://able2know.org/reply/post-5583800/quote/

Frank Apisa wrote:

You scorn America and its government, ci.

You should try somewhere else to live...somewhere more to your liking.

Maybe Mars!

http://able2know.org/reply/post-5585144/quote/

Frank Apisa wrote:

No fear mongering on my part, ci. You just want to scorn the US government. I cannot understand why you don't join Snowden in Russia...where you can have real freedom.

http://able2know.org/reply/post-5585174/quote/

Frank Apisa wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

I have visited Russia twice, and enjoyed myself tremendously; what has that got to do with where I live?

Too bad you didn't stay there.

http://able2know.org/reply/post-5585197/quote/

Frank Apisa wrote:

That is NOT asking ci to seek asylum. He has committed no crime that I know of, Walter. I answered that earlier. He could simply ask to move there...since he is so dissatisfied with our government.
/http://able2know.org/reply/post-5585215

Frank Apisa wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

Why would anyone consider moving to another country because they are dissatisfied with their government in any democracy?

Lots of people have done it. You'd have to ask one of them.

In any case, you sound as though you hate it here so much...and since I like you...I thought I would recommend one way to get away from it all, so to speak.

http://able2know.org/reply/post-5585235

quote="Frank Apisa"]
cicerone imposter wrote:

I can decide on my very own whether I'm happy in my country or not; none of your business.

You certainly can, ci...but since you seem to go on day after day, week after week about how disgruntled you are with the American government, I felt as a friend that I should at least suggest consider moving away.

these are from a few pages earlier this year

there is more

am I curious how P.O. Apisa will rationalize his comments? a bit, but I saw how he tried to rationalize it to Walter in middle of ^^^ and I don't imagine there's much new in the tool kit

Ebeth who has more patience than me found these passages written by you Frank. They say love it or leave it in so many words. You can deny all you want but I am satisfied that that is exactly what you meant by these words. I will not discuss this with you again. I dont believe in self flagellation.

THEY DO NOT SAY "LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT", Rabel.

They say, "If you hate the place, you ought to consider leaving it."

You are castigating me for saying, "Love it or leave it."

But I have never done so.

And if you cannot see the difference between "If you hate the place you ought to consider leaving it" and "Love it or leave it"...you are being as selectively blind as Beth.

Nothing wrong with being selectively blind, Rabel...I am actually getting a kick out of seeing you do it. It is so absurd, the only thing one can do is laugh at it.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Did Frank say anything important? Let me know when he does. LOL

Almost certainly, you are reading nearly everything I say, ci. I love the fact that you are being false to yourself in that.

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James Bamford interview with Snowden in the new Wired... http://www.wired.com/2014/08/edward-snowden

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

M-i-T's and Frank's position is a bit difficult to understand for me - to be a "critical citizen" was thought to be one of the fundamentals of democracy ... But might be that I'm still mentally in 1968.

On the contrary, Walter Hinteler, I am the essence of a "critical citizen." You're viewing me through a different prism; you and I hold different opinions with respect to the American contractor, Edward Snowden, who absconded with NSA Classified Documents. You and others believe Snowden a hero.....I have no quarrel with your personal viewpoint...I merely house the opposing opinion! If Mr. Snowden had a problem with the US government NSA program, there are channels he should have followed to air his grievances other than stealing his country's highly classified secret documents, exposing such to the world which has disturbed relations with other countries; alerting the terrorists how the US go about tracking them. The Snowden subject is a polarizing one.

What I object to passionately are others trying to distort what I am all about, twisting my meaning out of sheer spite simply because I don't share the same belief as they regarding the Snowden scenario.

I am all for free speech as this is one of America's fundamental privileges. I've stated, in so many words, I am one of my country's most vociferous critics, even, initially, agreeing with JTT until I discovered he was a monomaniac regarding the myriad crimes of the US. I see unfavorable criticism against the US by others on this board all the time and it doesn't bother me; I think it a healthy exercise.

It is CI whom I do not truly understand; his intense negative characterization of the US is akin to something only a core hater of America would stoop to. It's as if he has a *personal* animus against the country of his birth. CI seems so hostile against America that he says he will never vote again, forgetting that varying US governments come and go and may be vastly differently, often bringing contrasting changes.

I cannot help thinking CI appear to delight in pleasing non-Americans, who for whatever reason, dislike or has a sustained angry regarding the US. One gets the subtle impression CI is enjoying the plaudits, the pat-on-the-back from those cheering from the gallery watching him verbally tear down America.

I will defend my country despite its many faults. NSA spying on American citizens and others outside the US was/is wrong, but it is caught up in a technology which is not perfected yet. In advancing technology, there are sometimes many setbacks, after all, "Rome wasn't built in one day." America will change with its warts and all.....I have faith in my country.

1 Reply

@Moment-in-Time,

I have and will continue to criticize this country that has lost its way - including our government.

I don't hate the US; I hate what has become of our government and party politics.

It's too bad some of you don't know the difference. I provided my history as an American, and I have served my country in many ways including four years in the USAF. All my brothers also served in the military, and our son served over 12 years making the rank of Major. He was trained as a Weapons Officer at Luke AFB in Arizona, and became a trainer after his graduation. He served two terms in Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War.

I worked in management positions for 88% of my working career, and made a pretty decent living that now allows me to travel the world six or seven times a year. We live in relative comfort in Silicon Valley.

My wife served our country as an RN, and now volunteers at the local hospital and public library in retirement.

My brother is serving his second term as Mayor of his town, and served two terms in the state legislature.

We have relatives in California, Colorado, and Hawaii.

I've been retired since 1998, and have traveled to over 200 countries with many repeats to Europe and Asia. I will be visiting my 90th unique country next month on a 17-day cruise from Copenhagen to NYC.

Why would I hate the US?

1 Reply

Good grief. Why go with the either/or, black/white fallacy here. The US, like any nation or community, is a mix of jewels and crap. One can point at Brit soccer hooligans without concluding that the whole nation and culture is in the crapper.

If one reads Ha'aretz, one sees lots of severe critical commentary as regards that nation (far more of such criticism of Israel can be seen in that paper than in any paper in the US or Canada). Such criticism hardly is an instance of treasonous thought.

1 Reply

Out of curiosity, could those of you who read the Bamford piece on Snowden let me know who you are. Or if you refuse to, let me know that as well.

4 Replies

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

revelette2 wrote:
NSA was not doing anything behind our backs. We gave them the authority to do much of what they are doing every single time congress passed the Patriot Act with little or no objection from us. We just didn't know the extent they were doing it or the methods.
We Allowed This to Happen

Oh? So Snowden did not reveal programs and massive spying that we was unaware of!!!!!!!!!

In fact he did not.

As revelette2 noted, the NSA spying was explicitly authorized by (and repeatedly renewed by) the PATRIOT Act.

We all knew about it.

BillRM wrote:

By the way what part of the laws allowed the CIA to hacked into a US Senate computer network

What gave the senators the right to take top secret internal CIA documents and put them on their network?

What does this have to do with Snowden or the NSA?

BillRM wrote:

An what laws allowed the intelligent community to break the constitution as even the secret intelligence court had found in at least one case/program?

So far, the only "wrongdoing" that has been exposed here is a politician lying before Congress.

That is hardly worth all the damage that Snowden has done to our nation's security.

0 Replies

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Snowden was one of the few brave enough to follow the constitution and his oath and warn the rest of us what was being done behind our back. He is a real American hero.

He exposed no wrongdoing. The only thing he did was make it easier for terrorists to kill innocent Americans.

I doubt you'd find Snowden so heroic if you were killed by terrorists because of his revelations.

2 Replies

@oralloy,

oral boy is more likely to get killed while he's driving around home. Irrational fear is what you're suffering from.

0 Replies

@blatham,

I actually was going to post it - I found it on Zite this morning our time.

1 Reply

@hingehead,

I read it; very revealing - especially the parts about other leakers.

0 Replies

@blatham,

blatham wrote:

Out of curiosity, could those of you who read the Bamford piece on Snowden let me know who you are. Or if you refuse to, let me know that as well.

Not yet. But I'm not refusing. I'll probably get around to it tonight or tomorrow.

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thanks, guys

1 Reply

@blatham,

blatham wrote:

thanks, guys

I just read it.

I was disturbed that he was bothered by the fact that we freely provide raw data on American communications to Mossad.

Anything that we can do to help Israel defend themselves, I'm all for.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Aside from that being a peripheral issue...Even if the fourth amendment is violated? There's no probable cause here. This is a search of any/all Americans' communications with Palestinians without any parameters or limitations whatsoever.

1 Reply

@blatham,

blatham wrote:

Aside from that being a peripheral issue...

It was the one that stuck out at me.

I was already pretty familiar with Snowden already. PBS Frontline has done a pretty thorough documentary about him. I already understood that he honestly believes that he is exposing wrongdoing.

blatham wrote:

Even if the fourth amendment is violated?

I do not perceive any such violation, but I would want the data to be shared without violating the Fourth Amendment.

blatham wrote:

There's no probable cause here.

Probable cause is only for search warrants. Not every search by the government requires a warrant. A search by the US government only has to be reasonable.

I am not sure a search by the Israeli government would be constrained by the limits placed on the US government. However, given Palestinian terrorism, I think such searches can be deemed reasonable.

blatham wrote:

This is a search of any/all Americans' communications with Palestinians without any parameters or limitations whatsoever.

Keep in mind that it is just a keyword-type search. It isn't like someone is listening to every single phone call.

Considering the threat of Palestinian terrorism, that seems reasonable.

0 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

I have and will continue to criticize this country that has lost its way - including our government.

I don't hate the US; I hate what has become of our government and party politics.

It's too bad some of you don't know the difference. I provided my history as an American, and I have served my country in many ways including four years in the USAF. All my brothers also served in the military, and our son served over 12 years making the rank of Major. He was trained as a Weapons Officer at Luke AFB in Arizona, and became a trainer after his graduation. He served two terms in Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War.

I worked in management positions for 88% of my working career, and made a pretty decent living that now allows me to travel the world six or seven times a year. We live in relative comfort in Silicon Valley.

My wife served our country as an RN, and now volunteers at the local hospital and public library in retirement.

My brother is serving his second term as Mayor of his town, and served two terms in the state legislature.

We have relatives in California, Colorado, and Hawaii.

I've been retired since 1998, and have traveled to over 200 countries with many repeats to Europe and Asia. I will be visiting my 90th unique country next month on a 17-day cruise from Copenhagen to NYC.

Why would I hate the US?

I wonder that same thing, ci. Why DO YOU HATE the United States...or at least, why do you spend so much time showing scorn and hatred toward this country.

Once again, MiT said it much better than I. You seem to revel in tearing it down...and getting the "atta boy's" you get from others who detest it.

Our government is elected by us. We are the government...and we are the United States.

So I ask you the question you asked the forum:

Why do you hate the United States?

And I say the same thing I said earlier that has TRULY been mischaracterized:

If you hate what is happening here so much...and if you are sure it cannot be changed for the better...

...why not consider moving somewhere else?

That is not "Love it or leave it!" I do not even love it. But I do not spend almost every day in a public forum ripping it apart...showing loathing, scorn, and contempt for it...relentlessly.

0 Replies

@blatham,

blatham wrote:

Good grief. Why go with the either/or, black/white fallacy here. The US, like any nation or community, is a mix of jewels and crap. One can point at Brit soccer hooligans without concluding that the whole nation and culture is in the crapper.

If one reads Ha'aretz, one sees lots of severe critical commentary as regards that nation (far more of such criticism of Israel can be seen in that paper than in any paper in the US or Canada). Such criticism hardly is an instance of treasonous thought.

I have never indicated that ci is guilty of "treasonous thoughts" and I know of no other person here who has.

Some of us see him showing contempt, scorn, and hatred towards this country...and seeming to revel in his scorn, contempt and hatred of it.

That is what we have noted.

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@blatham,

blatham wrote:

Out of curiosity, could those of you who read the Bamford piece on Snowden let me know who you are. Or if you refuse to, let me know that as well.

I do not intend to read the piece...although I have read some excerpts from it.

The pieces I have read seem like a primer in how to beg the question.

2 Replies

Snowdon is a dummy

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