Snowdon is a dummy

@glitterbag,

Quote:

3 year extension to live in the Workers Paradise

You are many many years behind the time.....please read a newspaper at least once a year to keep up with current events.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

He apparently has screwed up, but he deserves a fair trial.

I hope he comes back to the United States so he can get one.[/b]

It doesn't make it any more true, just because you keep repeating it.

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@RABEL222,

RABEL222 wrote:

If everyone votes the way I do there will be change.

If everyone votes the way I do...there will be change also. If everyone thought the way I do...there will be change.

Whether it would be for the better or not in either case, though, is still up in the air.

And it is not going to happen in any case...so it is not a solution or even a possible solution, Rabel. It is fantasy.

Quote:

Turn over the politicians in government and turn out incumbents every election and change is bound to come.

More fantasy. And it shows that you and I both want things to get better.

But can you come up with any realistic suggestions?

Quote:

It would help if every once in a while we voters would elect someone who makes between 40 and 50 grand a year rather than millionares and billionares. What does a rich man know about every day living by people who have to be careful of their finances.

Some of the fiercest fighters for progressive causes that I hold dear...were very, very wealthy men. Almost all of the founding fathers were wealthy men.

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@glitterbag,

glitterbag wrote:

Hooray for Snowdon, he has received a 3 year extension to live in the Workers Paradise.

Yup, good for him. He finally is living his dream.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
He apparently has screwed up, but he deserves a fair trial.

I hope he comes back to the United States so he can get one.[/b]

It doesn't make it any more true, just because you keep repeating it.

Specifically...what do you see as NOT true in what I wrote?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Specifically that Snowden will get a fair trial. There has been absolutely nothing in the American government's behaviour to indicate a fair trial awaits. They select the judge, that judge rules what evidence is admissible, there's no whistleblower legislation etc. etc.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Specifically that Snowden will get a fair trial. There has been absolutely nothing in the American government's behaviour to indicate a fair trial awaits. They select the judge, that judge rules what evidence is admissible, there's no whistleblower legislation etc. etc.

The American legal system requires that we use the judges available; that we adhere to the rules of evidence...and that we try the individual under current law.

Doing that would be a "fair trial."

Everything indicates he will get a fair trial.

It sounds to me as though that is what is bothering you...that you want him to get a trial that is not fair.

Is that actually your point?

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@Frank Apisa,

I've told you my point, you believe Snowden will get a fair trial while all the evidence points to the contrary. You can keep repeating that belief, and redefining what you believe constitutes a fair trial, but you won't be changing any minds like that.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

I've told you my point, you believe Snowden will get a fair trial while all the evidence points to the contrary. You can keep repeating that belief, and redefining what you believe constitutes a fair trial, but you won't be changing any minds like that.

I absolutely refute your contention that " all the evidence points to the contrary."

That is self-serving nonsense.

I do agree that I most likely will not be changing any minds closed as tightly as yours on this issue, but that is something we all have to deal with from time to time.

If Snowden comes back...he will undoubtedly get a fair trial...and with the team of lawyers he will probably have...he will have a better than even chance of being found not-guilty.

You, it appears to me, want anything but a fair trial. You want him to be found not-guilty no matter what.

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@izzythepush,

Quote:

I've told you my point, you believe Snowden will get a fair trial while all the evidence points to the contrary. You can keep repeating that belief, and redefining what you believe constitutes a fair trial, but you won't be changing any minds like that.

I believe Snowden will get a free trial because all eyes will be on this particular case. The US to a degree is polarized regarding Snowden with two schools of thought. Some Americans think Snowden is a hero and should be given every honor, medal and distinction. Me? I think he's a betrayer of American classified documents who did not think through long and hard the damage he was possibly doing his country. The fact he scurried away like a rat to keep from being caught and is now in Russia's hands as an escape route from the US is par for the course.

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@Moment-in-Time,

I know what you think. Personally I think he's someone who exposed corrupt, and in some cases, criminal activities in the top levels of government.

Who watches the watchmen?

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@Frank Apisa,

It's no more self-serving nonsense that repeating the notion he will get a fair trial. Remember America tortured prisoners, and there are still people languishing in Guantanamo Bay without even being charged.

That is not evidence of a fair judicial system however much you try to spin it.

I'm not going to go round in circles on this with you. I remain convinced a fair trial for Snowden in America is an impossibility, no matter how many times you claim it's not.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I do agree that I most likely will not be changing any minds closed as tightly as yours on this issue, but that is something we all have to deal with from time to time.

Pot, kettle etc. etc.

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@Moment-in-Time,

Yes it is very damaging for the world as a whole to know that the US is trying to spy on everyone on the planet including all of it own citizens.

An Snowden have no moral obligation to turn himself over to the US government for the "crime" of informing the world that the US is no longer respecting it own constitution let alone the idea that there is a default human right to privacy that should only be overcome for cause.

1 Reply

@Moment-in-Time,

Moment-in-Time wrote:

Quote:

I've told you my point, you believe Snowden will get a fair trial while all the evidence points to the contrary. You can keep repeating that belief, and redefining what you believe constitutes a fair trial, but you won't be changing any minds like that.

I believe Snowden will get a free trial because all eyes will be on this particular case. The US to a degree is polarized regarding Snowden with two schools of thought. Some Americans think Snowden is a hero and should be given every honor, medal and distinction. Me? I think he's a betrayer of American classified documents who did not think through long and hard the damage he was possibly doing his country. The fact he scurried away like a rat to keep from being caught and is now in Russia's hands as an escape route from the US is par for the course.

The crimes Snowden is charged with are that he stole classified government documents...and released them to people not authorized to have them.

A fair trial on those charges is possible...and undoubtedly will happen if Snowden returns to the US.

People like Izzy, Bill and a few others keep talking about "a fair trial"...but the last thing in the world they (and Snowden) want...IS A FAIR TRIAL.

So...we go through this farce from time to time.

At least we ARE discussing Snowden...and for that, we should be thankful.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Yes it is very damaging for the world as a whole to know that the US is trying to spy on everyone on the planet including all of it own citizens.

America's behaviour since has done far more damage to its reputation than Snowden's original disclosures.

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@izzythepush,

What behavior since Snowden stole documents and released them to the press have been worse?

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

At least we ARE discussing Snowden...and for that, we should be thankful.

Indeed.
Unfortunately this thread was derailed over quite a few pages.
Thanks, Frank, that you brought it back on track!

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

The crimes Snowden is charged with are that he stole classified government documents...and released them to people not authorized to have them.

Just to get these legal things in the correct order:
Snowden is accused of
- Theft of Government Property 18 USC 541,
- Unauthorised Communication of National Defense Information 18 USC 793(d),
- Willful Communication of Classified Intelligence Information to an Unauthorised Person 18 USC 798(a)(3)

Source: the original criminal complaint

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
The crimes Snowden is charged with are that he stole classified government documents...and released them to people not authorized to have them.

Just to get these legal things in the correct order:
Snowden is accused of
- Theft of Government Property 18 USC 541,
- Unauthorised Communication of National Defense Information 18 USC 793(d),
- Willful Communication of Classified Intelligence Information to an Unauthorised Person 18 USC 798(a)(3)

Source: the original criminal complaint

I posted that list earlier, Walter.

I honestly think he can get a fair trial on those charges...in fact, I cannot think of any reason why he cannot.

And considering all the noise in his favor here and around the world...I think the defense's chance of an acquittal (or hung jury) are as good as the prosecutor's chance of a conviction.

Only way to find out is for him to come back for trial.

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Snowdon is a dummy

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