42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 12:46 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I'd "get it" if you were able to explain it.

I doubt it. You are very good at not understanding things.


Actually, I am very good at understanding things...when they are presented clearly. When things are not presented clearly, I ask questions in an attempt to understand them...which is what I did here.

Stop trying to be clever...and present what you were trying to say clearly.


Quote:
And my statement was written in plain English. What part did you fail to understand?


The part between the "M" in "Makes"...and the final period.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 12:48 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Frank will "never get it." He gets on these merry-go-round with people who disagree with him, and repeats ad nauseam the same refrain about him being right and everybody else being wrong. Between the mix of condescending bull shyt and insults, he thinks he's free from insulting others.

It's better to jump off that merry-go-round, because Frank will never "get it."

Even when its explained by several people.


Hi, ci. Glad to see you are awake for a while.

Quote:
Between the mix of condescending bull shyt and insults, he thinks he's free from insulting others.


Interesting sentence!

Did you have help writing that?



0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 01:22 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
If someone was wanted by Russia who happened to be just visiting here, I am pretty sure, he/she would be extradited to Russia. Wonder if the US will ask.
Well, Russia has asked for about 20 persons (I can't remember the exact number, but I gave a link for that many months ago) ...
revelette2
 
  3  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 02:33 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
2. Frank is misrepresenting CI's beef, which is not about the country but about the way it is governed


From what I understand from his post and his explanations of his posts, It doesn't matter what changes we make in regards to the government, it has no chance to be governed better because he thinks only the lobbies and big money in the end who run the country no matter who is elected or what they stand for or what most of the voters want and that is the way it will always be no matter what. So from that stand point, the distinction between government and country is not important since the country has no chance of being improved, he is always going to hate the government of the country of his choice. (birth?)

Personally, I think that is an unfortunate hyperbolic statement and/or belief to have. If I felt like that, I would just simply ignore politics and government in general and think about something else. It would be too depressing.
revelette2
 
  2  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 02:35 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Yeah, now that you bring it up, I remember you talking of it. Didn't pay too much attention at the time. In any case, will be interesting to see if the US ask and Russia's response. They might want to get on better terms.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 02:52 pm
@revelette2,
Actually, the federal government may show some improvements after the next presidential election. McConnell's (and the GOP's) one term president will be gone.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 03:11 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Actually, the federal government may show some improvements after the next presidential election. McConnell's (and the GOP's) one term president will be gone.


And it might not. That one term president may get to appoint two new Justices to SCOTUS.

Ahhh...but why worry about something like that. Make sure you don't vote, ci...enjoy trips to several foreign countries...and then come back and moan and groan every five minutes about what a sewer our country is...while living the relatively good life in Silicon Valley.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 03:12 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I’ll give it one shot. It’s more than you deserve.

Makes me laugh too, (this means that I find the following situation funny) to see trite nationalist slogans (this refers to "Love it or leave it"--"trite" means lacking originality or freshness) being recycled by ex-liberals (that refers to you) terrorised of AQ and co. (because all this spying is “justified” by the war on terror, in the name of which your government gets you to swallow anything) Like your fathers and mothers were terrorised by "commies" (because the Vietnam war, during which the phrase “Love or leave it” was coined I guess, was “justified” by the fear of Communism expansion)... History repeats itself, the first time as a tragedy, the second time as a farce. (this is an approximate quote from Karl Marx—in the context it means that, while the US politics around the Vietnam war were somewhat tragic, the modern recycling of old nationalist slogans to attack the pro-Snowden is pretty ridiculous)

Got it?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 03:16 pm
@revelette2,
Quote:
So from that stand point, the distinction between government and country is not important

If the way the nation is governed is completely different from what the country wants, it only makes the distinction between the two MORE important, not less, so you got no point.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 03:20 pm
@Olivier5,
"More important, not less" is spot on!

So many people do not know how any country's government can impact the people in so many ways.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 03:24 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

I’ll give it one shot. It’s more than you deserve.

Makes me laugh too, (this means that I find the following situation funny) to see trite nationalist slogans (this refers to "Love it or leave it"--"trite" means lacking originality or freshness) being recycled by ex-liberals (that refers to you) terrorised of AQ and co. (because all this spying is “justified” by the war on terror, in the name of which your government gets you to swallow anything) Like your fathers and mothers were terrorised by "commies" (because the Vietnam war, during which the phrase “Love or leave it” was coined I guess, was “justified” by the fear of Communism expansion)... History repeats itself, the first time as a tragedy, the second time as a farce. (this is an approximate quote from Karl Marx—in the context it means that, while the US politics around the Vietnam war were somewhat tragic, the modern recycling of old nationalist slogans to attack the pro-Snowden is pretty ridiculous)

Got it?



Not bad!

The only things I have problems with are:

The absurd "love it or leave it" analogy which is so forced, perhaps that's what is causing the laughter.

The "ex-liberal" nonsense. I don't remember ever identifying myself as a liberal...so I cannot be an ex-liberal. And I still espouse a progressive agenda.

I am certainly not terrorized by AQ and co. But if the government thinks there should be monitoring...I think they should be allowed to do so. Courts can test whether or not they are overstepping their bounds. So far...so good.

Because I suggest the government should be allowed to do their job...does not mean that I "have swollowed" anything.

The Vietnam War was a mistake...and lots of lives were lost for no decent reason. What does that have to do with me telling ci that if he hates it here...he should consider moving?

And...I am not attacking ci on his pro-Snowden stance. I am suggesting to him that if he finds this country so repellent that he has to bad mouth it anywhere near as much as he does...he ought to consider moving somewhere else. Perhaps he could move closer to Edward Snowden...who apparently found a place that is paradise compared with the US.

Gosh...now that I look at that, I guess I disagree with almost everything you said, Olivier.

Yeah...but that figures.

Anyway, my heartfelt thanks for giving me a reason and opportunity to mention some of that stuff again. I truly appreciate it. Wink
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 03:27 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
So from that stand point, the distinction between government and country is not important

If the way the nation is governed is completely different from what the country wants, it only makes the distinction between the two MORE important, not less, so you got no point.



Since the measure of whether or not the nation is being governed the way the people want is best done by seeing if they approve of the people governing...I guess we have to take a look at the results of the election next November.

I am willing to bet that almost the entire House of Representatives will be enthusiastically re-elected. Most of the Senators running for re-election will win also.

Sounds like they must be doing what the people want.

Revelette had a point. She hit the nail right on its head.

It is you, Olivier...missing the nail.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 03:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

"More important, not less" is spot on!

So many people do not know how any country's government can impact the people in so many ways.


Nah...Olivier got it all wrong.

We have the government we want, ci. We have the government we demand!

That seems to elude you.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 03:51 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
The absurd "love it or leave it" analogy which is so forced

This analogy is just factual. You are recycling that old 'argument'. As I explained to you elsewhere, the word "love" is rhetorical. What the statement means is exactly what you mean.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 04:09 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
The absurd "love it or leave it" analogy which is so forced

This analogy is just factual. You are recycling that old 'argument'. As I explained to you elsewhere, the word "love" is rhetorical. What the statement means is exactly what you mean.


No...it does not.

I am not asking anyone...least of all ci...to love or even like America. I am talking about a human condition...that of dissatisfaction.

If you are dissatisfied in a marriage...you must do something about it. Either you and your spouse must make changes that will improve the marital environment...or a divorce must occur.

If you do not like a television program...you should change the channel.

If you do not like opera...buying and listening to opera tapes makes no sense.

That is how dissatisfaction must be handled, Olivier...you either work for change...or you get out of the situation.

ci has spent hours boring us with rants about how disgusting and depraved this country is...about how much he loathes it...and about how it cannot change and he doesn't even intend to vote because it is not worthwhile.

My suggestion to him that he consider leaving for elsewhere WAS not inappropriate, not unreasonable, and not unwarranted.

The fact that you are now trying to hone in on a contrived supposed analogy between what I was saying...and the 1960's "love it or leave it"...is beyond ridiculous.

But...you have got to do this kind of thing because you have an itch that you simply cannot scratch.

You'd do much better not to get involved...because you end up the way you are now. But you just do not learn from your mistakes. You are, in fact, living the "history repeats itself, the first time as a tragedy, the second time as a farce" Olivier.

How does it feel?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 04:23 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Yes, it does mean exactly what you mean. Sad you can't understand it but I am not surprised.
Frank Apisa
 
  4  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 04:36 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Yes, it does mean exactly what you mean. Sad you can't understand it but I am not surprised.


No...it does not. But you will never be able to acknowledge that.

"Love it or leave it" was used by a select group to disparage another select group...hawk conservatives battling anti-war liberals.

My comment to ci was MY COMMENT...my suggestion...as a way to get past the incredible discomfort he is feeling at having to live in such a disgusting place as he views the United States. It certainly was not conservative against liberal in any way.

The fact that my comments about the election have been studiously avoided tell me plenty about where you are in this thing, Olivier...and where ci is.

WE...are the government. It exists at our pleasure. We vote them in. The fact remains that even in the face of dissatisfaction of an unprecedented volume...a vast majority of incumbents will be returned to office...and the people who are in the majority of the voters who decided those races...will be ecstatic that they were re-elected.

WE...are the government ci loathes so soundly. The government, he abhors and denigrates at every opportunity, is the United States.

His hatred is of this country...a country he sees little hope of improving.

I suggest he ought to move. He will be happier if he does.

As for our disagreement, Olivier, I guess I have to find solace in the fact that you really do allow me to run you ragged.
Wink
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 04:37 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Thanks again for helping me with an opportunity to say all that one more time.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  3  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 04:52 pm
A free nation?

Nor is such nonsense helpful in fighting terrorism. All it is is a complete waste of resources.


Quote:



http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2014/07/10/us-citizens-sue-government-over-suspicious-activity-program-which-keeps-files-on-innocent-people/

The American Civil Liberties Union has filed a lawsuit on behalf of five United States citizens challenging a domestic surveillance program, which involves the collection of “suspicious activity reports” on individuals.

The federal government has a National Suspicious Activity Reporting Initiative (NSI) that, according to the ACLU’s filed complaint [PDF], “encourages state and local law enforcement agencies as well as private actors to collect and report information that has a potential nexus to terrorism in the form of so-called ‘suspicious activity reports [SARs].’”

Any individual who is flagged as having a “potential nexus to terrorism” will automatically be subject to “law enforcement scrutiny, which may include intrusive questioning by local or federal law enforcement agents.” Plus, “Even when the Federal Bureau of Investigation concludes that the person did not have any nexus to terrorism, a SAR can haunt that individual for decades, as SARs remain in federal databases for up to 30 years.”

NSI consists of one central database launched a few years ago effectively enables a network of domestic spying activity where reports from various US law enforcement agencies are pooled together. Homeland Security fusion centers also facilitate the distribution of these SARs.

The ACLU argues that the standards, which govern collection of reports for this domestic surveillance program, conflict with the Justice Department’s own standards. The Justice Department “prohibits the collection, maintenance and dissemination of criminal intelligence information unless there is reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.” But reasonable suspicion of criminal activity is not required for reports.

The initiative will accept reports which stem from constitutionally protected conduct, such as photographing of infrastructure. Or, more generally, reports of any individual “acting suspiciously,” which could mean anything depending on what prejudice or bias a person holds.

Tariq Rezak, a US citizen of Pakistani descent and one of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit, was seen by Security Officer Karina De La Rosa while he was at the Santa Ana Train Depot in California. He became the subject of a SAR submitted by De La Rosa on May 16, 2011. It reads, “Male of Middle Eastern decent [sic] observed surveying entry/exit points.”

De La Rosa further explained in the SAR that her “suspicion became aroused because the male appeared to be observant of his surroundings and was constantly surveying all areas of the facility. The male’s appearance was neat and clean with a closely cropped beard, short hair wearing blue jeans and a blue plaid shirt.” She added that he moved where the restrooms were located and departed with “a female wearing a white burka head dress” after she came out of the restroom.

She considered this “suspicious activity as related to terrorism training’” she had received. “The behavior depicted by the male was similar to examples shown in her training raising her suspicion and making the decision to notify the police,” according to the SAR.

There are probably few better examples of how this domestic surveillance system can enable prejudice and racism to influence law enforcement operations.

“The woman he was with was his mother,” the complaint explains. “He had an appointment at the county employment resource center, which is located in the station building. He had not been to the station before and spent some time locating the office before meeting up with his mother by the restrooms and leaving. His mother was wearing a hijab (head scarf), and not a burka.”

Another plaintiff is Khaled Ibrahim, a US citizen of Egyptian descent who lives in San Jose, California. He works as a purchasing agent for Nordix Computer Corporation. He went to Best Buy in Dublin, California, as part of his job. Management would not allow him to purchase computers in bulk. He became the subject of a SAR submitted on November 14, 2011, regarding attempts to purchase “large amounts of computers.”

Wiley Gill, who is also a plaintiff, lives in Chico, California, and works at Chico State University as a custodian. He is white and recently converted to Islam in 2009 after he took a religion course while enrolled at Chico State.

A SAR the Chico Police Department submitted on May 23, 2012, indicated Gill’s “full conversion to Islam as a young WMA [white, male adult],” “pious demeanor,” and “potential access to flight simulators via the internet” were “worthy of note.” Police had visited him in the mosque where he worships. They allegedly claimed they were making a domestic violence call as a pretext to enter his home and conduct a search. They saw something on his computer screen that said something like “Games that fly under the radar” and interpreted as a “flight simulator type of game.”

The two other plaintiffs are photographers who were harassed by private security guards for trying to take photographs of private property from public areas.

James Prigoff was in Boston, Massachusetts, and wanted to photograph a piece of well-known public art that is known as the “Rainbow Swash.” It is on a natural gas storage tank. Security guards shooed him away from two locations before he finally was able to take a photograph from a third location.

He returned home to Sacramento, California, and four months later, on August 19, 2004, he found a handwritten note on his door. Agent A. Ayaz of the Joint Terrorism Task Force had left him a message, which read, “Mr. Prigoff, please call me. Thanks.”

Aaron Conklin was trying to photograph the Valero Refinery in Benicia, California in 2011 or 2012. He was there at 10 pm because he wanted to “capture the refinery illuminated against the dark knight sky.” He was sternly warned by a private security guard and told he could not take a photograph. Conklin left the refinery.

In November 2013, he tried to photograph the Shell Refinery at about 10 pm. Security guards came out to inform him photography was prohibited and taking a photo was “somehow connected to terrorism.”

Even though Conklin complied, the Contra Costa County Sheriff’s Department was called and two deputy officers arrived. They searched through his photos on his camera and searched his car. The deputies told Conklin that he would be placed on an “NSA watch list.” This went on for at least forty-five minutes before he was allowed to leave.

All of the US citizens suing the Justice Department are, according to the ACLU, “deeply troubled by what may result from the collection, maintenance, and dissemination in a national database of a report describing” them as “engaging in suspicious activity with a potential nexus to terrorism.”

It’s their understanding that these SARs will be maintained in national databases for years and shared between various agencies.

“All I was doing was taking pictures in a public place, and now I’m apparently in a government terrorism database for decades,” Prigoff said. “This is supposed to be a free country, where the government isn’t supposed to be tracking you if you’re not doing anything wrong. I lived through the McCarthy era, and I know how false accusations, surveillance, and keeping files on innocent people can destroy careers and lives. I am deeply troubled that the SAR program may be recreating that same climate of false accusation and fear today.”

Linda Lye, a staff attorney with the ACLU of Northern California, further declared, “This domestic surveillance program wrongly targets First Amendment-protected activities, encourages racial and religious profiling, and violates federal law.”

“The Justice Department’s own rules say that there should be reasonable suspicion before creating a record on someone, but the government’s instructions to local police are that they should write up SARs even if there’s no valid reason to suspect a person of doing anything wrong.”

comment on this 5 Comments
TAGS: SURVEILLANCE, WAR ON TERRORISM, ACLU, POLICE, FIRST AMENDMENT, MUSLIMS, HOMELAND SECURITY

5 Responses to “US Citizens Sue
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 7 Aug, 2014 05:02 pm
@BillRM,
Fear seems to dominate many people's perception even though there have been very little terrorist violence in the US. Over 90% of terrorist activities in the US are done by unsuspected non-terrorist individuals. There's no balance between what the NSA and law enforcement departments are doing that is illegal based on our Constitution.

Even Obama permitted torture of American citizens.
Quote:
Obama to approve indefinite detention and torture of ...
rt.com/usa/obama-detention-veto-defense-853/RT
Obama to approve indefinite detention and torture of Americans. Published time: December 14, 2011
 

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