42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 10:30 am
@JTT,
I already advocate for minorities, women, and people who are discriminated again whether they live in the US or not. Most of us who live in the US already know our failures without the likes of you repeating them ad nauseam. What you can't seem to comprehend is that governments makes wars, and the citizens have little choice in the matter. It's a very simple idea that seems to escape you!

You'd be better off in a psycho ward; people there won't mind your obsessive behavior.
JTT
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 10:35 am
@cicerone imposter,
You can't even answer a simple question. Why are you so focused on Israel when the USA is guilty of much much much worse in terms of volume and the degree of viciousness?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 10:41 am
@JTT,
Because I have visited Israel twice and understand the suffering by the Palestinian peoples, and must challenge the likes of Advocate, oral boy, and a few others attempt to share misinformation about the Zionists of Israel. Some of us understand this dichotomy; you don't.
JTT
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 10:52 am
@cicerone imposter,
Your frequent references to you as a world traveller has nothing to do with this, CI. Everyone, save for the brain dead, knows of the suffering of the palestinian people.

You are avoiding the question. What of the much greater suffering, in terms of volume, of the Nicaraguans, the Guatemalans, the Vietnamese, Koreans, Filipinos, Angolans, afghans, Iraqis, need I go on because there are millions upon millions.

So the question remains - why do you focus so diligently on Israel when, as noted above, something you know, the crimes of the USA are much much worse?
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 10:57 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Personally I have no problem with any of that and hope those informal agreements gets worked out, I hope more control happens in respect to our NSA if there are indeed doing any rogue spying and I also agree we shouldn't spy on Germans for reasons other a terrorist connection, spying just to find out what they think when they can have pick up the phone is wrong just like they say.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 10:58 am
There is no such thing as informal agreements, agreements are hammered out between countries and are renegotiated or renewed periodically. Sounds great, this whole informal thing, but since intel analysts on both sides become trusted coworkers, neither country can afford to leave it to individuals without iron clad guidance in place.

The Germans ask, and the US asks questions occasionally, and an answer is delivered. Everybody on each side know the difference between the company line and what actually is going on. I will never really hear what was at stake in this accusation of spying on a friend, neither will Walter.

I am stunned that the Germans think the money to build an NSA facility is being borne by German citizens. I wish that was true, that will make Germany the only partner in the world who uses their own money. Also, German workers will be used to construct anything built on German soil. The US will pay the
cost of labor as well. Perhaps on my side of the spoon, knowing how unhappy American taxpayers are when they learn about expenditures everyplace overseas, it's not something that is normally trumpeted in the newspapers. Even here on A2K, there have been threads devoted to the issue of how high the liquor budget is for various US Embassies. So it doesn't serve the US or
Germany to rub American taxpayers noses in the amount of money it takes for
the US to fund and support joint efforts. Especially while Congress wants to make cuts in domestic programs, and while they resist any reductions in
Defense spending.

Maybe it would be a good thing for our Government to fess up about the actual amount of money we give to our friends. Might be interesting to learn the reason Congress wants to defund vaccinations, health care for the destitute, as well as other programs they are willing to deny our poorest citizens is to continue to pay the lions share of expense to assist our friends in Germany as we do other places around the globe.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 11:25 am
@glitterbag,
Quote:
Maybe it would be a good thing for our Government to fess up about the actual amount of money we give to our friends.

You mean aid money? Because no defense money is given to any friend... That money is largely spent on providing American goods and services, and even if you argue it's for the defense of Germany, we all know that's a stretch. By having troops in Germany the US is also defending itself... I.e. those bases were routinely used for the Afghanistan war (and probably also for Iraq) as logistical and medical back up bases.
JTT
 
  0  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 11:39 am
@glitterbag,
Quote:
to continue to pay the lions share of expense to assist our friends in Germany as we do other places around the world

-----------

“When the going gets tough, Americans keep giving - to the tune of nearly $241 billion. Charitable donations for 2002 set a new high, rising 1 percent
2. ... and the Stingiest

2.1. Beneath the Surface

The USA is only the world's biggest giver because it is rich. In terms of generosity and altruism, the USA is the most stingy and self-interested giver in the developed world:

“[Americans] are regularly told by politicians and the media, that America is the world's most generous nation. This is one of the most conventional pieces of 'knowledgeable ignorance'. According to the OECD, the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, the US gave between $6 and $15 billion in foreign aid in the period between 1995 and 1999. In absolute terms, Japan gives more than the US, between $9 and $15 billion in the same period. But the absolute figures are less significant than the proportion of gross domestic product (GDP, or national wealth) that a country devotes to foreign aid. On that league table, the US ranks twenty-second of the 22 most developed nations. As former President Jimmy Carter commented: 'We are the stingiest nation of all'. Denmark is top of the table, giving 1.01% of GDP, while the US manages just 0.1%. The United Nations has long established the target of 0.7% GDP for development assistance, although only four countries actually achieve this: Denmark, 1.01%; Norway, 0.91%; the Netherlands, 0.79%; Sweden, 0.7%. Apart from being the least generous nation, the US is highly selective in who receives its aid. Over 50% of its aid budget is spent on middle-income countries in the Middle East, with Israel being the recipient of the largest single share.”
"Why Do People Hate America?" by Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies (2002)2
Not only that, but according to one source cited by Sarder & Davies, 80% of that aid itself actually goes to American companies in those foreign countries.

% of USA aid 1988-1989
Israel 12.5
Egypt 9.5
Pakistan 3.9
El Salvador 3.3
India 1.9
Philippines 1.8
“US aid, which acquired an increasingly military flavour during the Regan years, is now concentrated on a relatively small number of countries of special political importance.”
"Introduction to International Politics" by Heater & Berridge (1992)3
According to Heater & Berridge, Israel has been receiving 12/13% of all American charitable foreign aid since 1979, the chart shows numbers from 1988-1989.

2.2. Tied Aid

“The most generous countries are also the ones that do not tend to tie aid to their own products and services. The stingiest countries also, almost spitefully and nastily, force countries to buy their own services and products with the aid they give; which reduces free trade and commerce and harms the country's economy, as well as being simply selfish and conceited. Thankfully, many countries do not tie their aid. Countries that tie less than 10% of aid include Ireland, Norway and the UK, then Belgium, Finland, Switzerland and Sweden. The USA is the worst, and ties nearly 90% of its aid to developing countries. Italy is the second worst with 70%. The two worst countries for this obnoxious practice in aid-giving are also the two countries out of the most developed countries, who give least generously!”
"What is the Best Country in the World?: An Index of Morality, Conscience and Good Life" by Vexen Crabtree (2013)
3. Conclusion

Firstly, I will briefly highlight how this causes hatred of the USA, then I will make sure that no reasonable reader can automatically blame the average USA American personally for the state of affairs as given.

Cause of hatred: The hypocrisy that the USA claims moral high but fails when the details of this claim are examined lead many to believe that the USA is ('as normal...') merely using its wealth to buy the moral high ground rather than being it. USA economic interests seem to be the only priority of the ethics of the USA. People are led to hate Americans: For not giving more to the people who genuinely need it, for economic bullying and aggression, and finally for not being critical of their own government and believing its propaganda. People are also driven to hate the USA as a whole for its wholesale economic aggression, hypocrisy, lies and power mongering even when it comes to charity
But, the statistics are not enough to warrant a justifiable hatred of USA Americans. For starters, the vast majority of giving is done by individuals, not by corporations, and we need to be able to differentiate between the two. If corporations are particularly poor givers in the USA, then it is simply commercialism that is to blame for the USA's tight pockets, but USA individuals may well be the same as individuals in other developed countries. From these stats, we can't tell, so any conclusion would be wrong
USA citizens are not given world news in the same way as most the other developed nations, and may well be genuinely unaware that much of the world is as poor as it is. European news is highly world-centric, whereas due to its size most USA news does not have enough time to cover news in all neighbouring states, let alone news from around the world. Therefore again it may be corporate greed that betrays American, not its relatively innocent ordinary citizens
The rest of the world
It is likely true that all countries are biased towards giving to countries where they have economic or political interest. This is inevitable, and will probably never change. The difference with the USA appears to be that it is the single loudest self-congratulator. When it comes to war and aggression and other USA foreign policy issues, the USA is always heard to be boasting of how it is a beneficiary to much of the world. Yet, proportionally, all 21 of the other developed nations give more, and none of them used the "we are good because we are generous" argument that their policy was correct. Such emotional blackmail would produce a lot of internal criticism in any European country where the government claimed such a thing. In Europe where worldly communications are highly developed, every country can see the internal workings of the rest of the world and governmental criticism is heard of all governments.

However, despite the USA's dominance of mass media, it is frequently only the pro-USA, self-congratulatory messages that seem to arrive in Europe, the USA citizens criticism and disbelief of their own government is not apparent, which gives the overall impression that Americans are either gullible, ignorant or honestly uncaring. It appears to many Europeans that the USA government and its citizens believe two things:

That USA is a generous nation of people.
That this also gives the USA a right to enforce aggressive foreign policies and aggressively pursue economic interests in all other countries.
This can be explained if we dismiss it purely as a symptom of USA style overpowering commercialism, but it leaves many people in the modern world to seriously doubt the honesty or sincerity of any USA aid that does go to non-American companies in foreign countries. (Also, we need to look at what percent of foreign aid of other countries goes to own-companies abroad). The result is a cycle of mistrust of USA aid, distrust of the motives for giving (where the blackmail tactic is used so often, the motives are often not seen as charitable, but manipulative) and hatred of the USA's approach as a whole.

I must assert, however, that I believe most USA citizens give money because they genuinely care about the plight of the poor world, as well as their own numerous poor, but that they themselves do not often look into the mechanisms of how that aid is distributed and used. And let's face it, when we give to charity, how many of us check how the charity in question is using the funds? Especially with foreign charity, it is a difficult task and most people do not even know how to go about checking that their money is used properly, usefully and unpolitically.

So, in conclusion, I think that the USA government intentionally manipulates other countries, especially poor ones, by strategic giving, and the USA government also manipulates itseir egos and self-worth through delusions of moral greatness achieved through charity. It is nearly certainly not the case that the average USA citizen is less caring or less generous, but is a function of USA style capitalism that money is power, and morals are subservient to long term economic interests - something which the average citizen (or company) can do little to alter. Any alteration needs to be enacted wholesale by USA federal government, but, however, the USA government system is the single biggest conscious cause of such a situation, and appears to be very unwilling to change, and perhaps even believes that its style of "free trade" is actually good for the rest of the world. Is the government wearing blinkers, or, as George Orwell woulSweden?

Read / Write Comments
By Vexen Crabtree 2003 Aug 28
http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/foreign_aid.html


References: (What's this?)
Heater & Berridge
Introduction to International Politics (1992). Quotes from 1993 version, Harvester Wheatsheaf publishing, Hertfordshire, England

Sardar, Ziauddin and Davies, Merryl Wyn
Why Do People Hate America
Heater & Berridge (1992) p80.^
2005 Sep 16: Added quotes from "What is the Best Country in the World?: An Index of Morality, Conscience and Good Life" by Vexen Crabtree (2013).
© 2013 Vexen Crabtree. All rights reserved.
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0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 12:31 pm
@glitterbag,
I thought it a good way for both sides to save face.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 12:36 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:

I thought it a good way for both sides to save face.


My guess: That is exactly what both sides are looking for. A way to save face...and to put this entire matter behind us before the radicals manage to use it to destroy a needed and favored relationship.
JTT
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 12:51 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
the radicals ...


Yeah, nothing is so radical as those who seek to have their government follow the constitution.
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 01:03 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:

Not true; you just don't see what most of us see in reading other people's or your posts. That's the reason why you go overboard on one topic. It's called an obsession, and everybody else can see it in your posts. Look up "obsession psychology."


JTT is so preoccupied by his monomania, that's he's unable to objectively see how he comes across to others. If he were able to discern his board posts objectively, then half his problem would be solved.

JTT's most transparent problem is "monomaniac"......a pathological obsession which is also akin to paranoia. JTT seem to house a pathological obsession with one subject, "US crimes," which he repeats 24/7, 365 days a year.....endlessly.

I began posting on this board in March 2013. I am my country's worse critic and after a few exchanges with JTT, I realize, to my disappointment, he had a sick obsessiveness with the crimes of the US which is his constant theme.....similar to someone with a mental irregularity.

Last evening I responded to a post of JTT's regarding Israel's use of white phosphorus, an incendiary chemical weapon, which when used against people, will burn the flesh fiercely. Afterwards, I regretted replying to him so quickly, forgetting momentarily that JTT has a problem and did not need any encouragement from me.
JTT
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 01:17 pm
@Moment-in-Time,


Quote:
I am my country's worse critic a


You were looking for WORST, MiT, not WORSE, but you are just another USA war crimes apologist. You constantly whitewash what the USA has done, still does on a daily basis.

You and CI can't even answer the simple question -

Why are you two so focused on Israel when the USA is guilty of much much much worse in terms of volume and the degree of viciousness?
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 01:34 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
You were looking for WORST, MiT, not WORSE,


Thank you for correcting my spelling, JTT. I often make that mistake among others. See, you've just proven you can concentrate on something other than America's crimes abroad and at home......Are you beginning to show progress?! Hope springs eternal.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 02:16 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Maybe it would be a good thing for our Government to fess up about the actual amount of money we give to our friends.

You mean aid money? Because no defense money is given to any friend... That money is largely spent on providing American goods and services, and even if you argue it's for the defense of Germany, we all know that's a stretch. By having troops in Germany the US is also defending itself... I.e. those bases were routinely used for the Afghanistan war (and probably also for Iraq) as logistical and medical back up bases.


No I'm not talking about foreign aid. If you spent many or any years with the French intelligence service you wouldn't have made that remark.
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 02:39 pm
@JTT,
Quote:

Why are you two so focused on Israel when the USA is guilty of much much much worse in terms of volume and the degree of viciousness?


I am unable to speak for CI, only myself as to why I am "so focused on Israel."

Unlike you, JTT, there are several subjects which interest me. If I were to spend all my waking hours putting down my country and criticizing it, people would soon believe I was a mental aberrational copy of you. I am interested in foreign policy, domestic policy, and social issues...the list is very long...needless to say, I am not an obsessive personality. US taxpayer money is provided to Israel annually in the sum of 3 billion plus (Israel gets more money than any other country). Israel's inability to make friends with her neighbor has made the US a target of her enemies.....Israel is a liability to the US. Israel uses US taxpayer money to subdue the Palestinians, destroy their homes, their citrus trees, occupy their territories, and kill scores of innocent Palestinian youth. Frankly, I resent my taxpayer money used by Israel to occupy another people, doing untold severe psychological damage to Palestinian youth.

Israel is ruthlessly cruel towards a defenseless people. We see how Israel continues to STEAL the land from under these people by building more and more settlements while the Palestinians were there when European Jews, running from Hitler, made up the lie the Middle East, Palestine, belongs to them. It breaks my heart to see these vulnerable people fighting with stone age tools; Hamas has rockets but only one or two Israelis have been killed. I have watched Israel bulldoze homes, some with people still inside. I remember an IDF driving a bulldozer roll over Rachel Corrie, an American protester. I remember Israel shelling the USS Liberty and got away with it.

The US is the number one target of the Muslim extremists because they see the US applying a double standard while the Zionist kill as many Palestinians and get away with it. It was sad the three Israeli teens were killed but the one Palestinian boy burned alive, along with a Palestinian-American who barely escaped with his life, and on top of that over 170 dead Palestinians cause me to see Israel as the master criminal here aided by the US who, by all accounts, seem weak as hell in the face of Zionist pressure.

So you see, JTT, I am not limited in subjects I care about. You, on the other hand, appear unhealthy with your maniacal obsession with one subject, the crimes of the US.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 02:52 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
To expand on that idea, I also care about people around the world who are mistreated or do not enjoy equal rights. I have written to our congress and president to lift the embargo against Cuba, a stupid law of the US that only hurts the people of Cuba and not their government to no avail. They responded stupidly attacking my intelligence saying that the Cuban people do not have freedoms. Why do we trade with China, Vietnam, and Russia, all communist countries. However, Vietnam has instituted economic and political reforms that allowed it for its economy to grow at one of the fastest rates in the world, and have become a member of the World Trade Organization.

An example of the potential of what Cuba can become if given the opportunity. Most countries in the world already trade with Cuba including our neighbors to the north and south, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, and all of Europe.

JTT
 
  2  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 03:08 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Your whole post was taken up with Israel. Israel does damage on a scale that is miniscule when compared to that of the USA. Now I'm not suggesting for a second that Israel get a free ride, but what you are doing is targeting a little spoke and giving the big wheel a free ride.

Yes, you would encounter a big pushback if you actually described the war crimes and terrorism of the USA. That's all y'all can do is try to shoot the messenger, repeat propagandist memes, pretend like you do recognize "the USA isn't perfect but blah blah blah".

The record clearly illustrates that the USA is not at all what it has been described as, benevolent, the saviour of the oppressed, the worlds policeman. It has been nothing but an oppressor, not at all benevolent, just greedy and rapacious.

It is, far and away, the greatest terrorist threat on planet Earth.

Olivier5
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 03:10 pm
@glitterbag,
Quote:
No I'm not talking about foreign aid. If you spent many or any years with the French intelligence service you wouldn't have made that remark.

What the heck are you talking about? You guys fund the French Intel Services now???
JTT
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 03:19 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:
Israel is ruthlessly cruel towards a defenseless people


And the USA isn't, hasn't been the hundreds of times it has invaded countries? You really don't know much about USA history, MiT. How about the USA's dedicated terrorist training school? You have no idea the damage they have done.

What of the USA stealing the wealth of myriad countries around the world?

What of the constant propaganda that comes out about the good kind USA. You are silent, but you sure push back hard against Israeli supporters.

You started off really good here at a2k, then you folded under the heat.
 

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