Snowdon is a dummy

@revelette2,

revelette2 wrote:

At the end of the day, what are you expecting the US to do to remain friends? If we fall short, what are you expecting your leadership to do? If they fall short after all the investigating and pronouncements, what are you going to do or those in your country?

I think what Frank is getting at, and I am not sure it will work that way, at the end of the day, the US won't change too much and I imagine in all other respects the US and Germany will continue on in the same fashion as before.

Excellent question, Revelette. Much better than my "so what is your position."

I thank you for posing it.

I hope after the thrill of the World Championship wears off...maybe tomorrow...Walter will respond with some details.

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Does anyone other than me remember the American soldier who cooperated with East Germany in the early 80's. When I say cooperate, I mean spy for Germany against the US. That particular American caused a great deal of damage to the US and West Germany. The main reason, because the US then, as well as now provides a great deal of intelligence to the former West Germany as well as the current configuration of Germany. When the American betrayed his country as well as our partner West Germany, it meant that hostile governments were informed of successful inroads made by both West Germany and the US in our mission to keep both nations safe.

I certainly don't know what kind of info the BND member is accused of passing along to the US, I have no idea what Germany doesn't already share. There are agreements in place and I do know that neither Germany nor US have unfettered access to all aspects of each others reactions. But that's the same arrangement the 5 eyes group has, that group does not have unfettered access as well.

I get that many people believe Snowdon was judicious in exposing wrong doing, but he absconded with a tremendous cache of intell exposing not just US efforts but the efforts of every single country in the world that has any relationship with the US, and that means Germany. If you believe that Snowdon was able to limit what Hong Kong and Russia did with Snowdon's stolen intelligence, I envy your innocence. Snowden did to the entire community of cooperating nations that the American soldier in the early 80's did to West Germany and the US.

So Germany expelled the US Station Chief, that's the first time that has happened with a close partner. So now the citizens of Germany are happy their government halted American wrong doing. Here's the thing I wonder, for the most part relations between American and German analysts were terrific, especially since Germany received so much crucial intel from us. The US has assets the Germans can't afford on their own, US taxpayers foot that bill because we have promised to protect Germany. That arrangement I doubt will change, unless Germany decides they want us out. But, I wonder how the Americans working side by side with our partners will feel. I think this whole business has a chilling affect for both sides. Germany depends on US help for tip offs and joint efforts against terrorist activities targeting German cities, citizens and infrastructures. I can't imagine we would ever withhold vital info, but I bet it will be still be done, but with a bitter aftertaste.

Under the circumstances, I don't see the 5 eyes expanding to 6 eyes for a boatload of reasons. Germany and the US have a close partnership which is similar to that we have with the group of 5, but 5 eyes is not owned by the US and we cannot simply grant access without all the other countries. I certainly can't speak for Australia, but I can't think of any reason at all that they need Germany included. They already have diplomatic missions and belong to NATO and the United Nations. Someone working at a much higher level than I ever did would be much more knowledgable regarding benefit than I.

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@glitterbag,

Quote:

the American betrayed his country as well as our partner West Germany, it meant that hostile governments were informed of successful inroads made by both West Germany and the US in our mission to keep both safe.

That's another lie. As the top terrorist nation/group in the world, the USA commits its terrorist actions to ensure that it can steal from the poor of the world. You only have to take an honest look at history to realize that. But honesty certainly ain't your thing, gb.

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Quote:

The Illusion of Democracy in America. Rebellion Across the US against “Phony Democracy”

Democracy Rebellion Rolls Across United States as Americans Are Repeatedly Shown How Anti-Democratic the Government Really Is

By Kevin Zeese and Margaret Flowers
Global Research, July 13, 2014
popularresistance.org/
Region: USA
Theme: Police State & Civil Rights

...

The Snowden case, and other cases involving whistleblowers, show another failed aspect of US governance – the courts.

Hillary Clinton joined John Kerry in urging Snowden to come home and face prosecution claiming he could defend himself in court. The reality is there is no way he could receive a fair trial. In fact, prosecution of whistleblowers has proven itself to be more like the court in Alice in Wonderland which was a mockery of due process and where the trial concluded with the Queen calling out: ‘Sentence first, verdict later.’

This week Snowden applied to have his political asylum extended in Russia and it is likely to be granted, because people around the world see how unjust the United States has become. A government official in Russia said that Edward Snowden’s temporary asylum is likely to be extended on the grounds that “his life is endangered.”

The North Texas Light Bridgade put out the truth about US democracy as part of the Rolling Rebellion

It is not likely that Snowden could have gone through the system to expose the NSA’s crimes. CIA whistleblower Jeffrey Scudder tried that approach and was ruined. He is a sad example of what happens to people who try to work within the current system to expose the truth.

The good news is people are not being cowered by the attack on whistleblowers and journalists who cover them. This week a new NSA leak was released that did not come from Snowden, indicating that there may be a new NSA whistleblower.

Also this week, a set of billboards have gone up around the DC area featuring Daniel Ellsberg, urging more whistleblowers and providing a safe way for people to blow the whistle. We hope that more people who believe in real democracy, human rights and the rule of law will expose the truth either anonymously using SecureDrop or openly with public support (Visit the Courage Foundation to support Snowden, whistleblowers and our right to information).

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-illusion-of-democracy-in-america-rebellion-across-the-us-against-phony-democracy/5391058

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@Walter Hinteler,

Politics as usual Walter.

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@JTT,

So you don't know the name of the Army member who was tried and convicted for treasonous activity. At that time Germany was still split and our ally and friend was West Germany...... It just occurred to me that it would be a complete waste of energy to provide facts for JTT, all he can see are acts of wrong doing by the US. He's not concerned about attacks on the US. So, it's a useless endeavor.

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@glitterbag,

JTT doesn't understand 'balance.' He's what is known as a "US hate monger."
He's a ******* bore who repeats ad nauseum the same message a billion times. He's suffering from psychosis, a brain disease that can't be cured. I've never in my life ever encountered such a brain damaged person in my life, and I've met many people around this small planet. From little knowledge I learned about the brain, he has left side brain damage which controls logical functions. He's lost it all!

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@glitterbag,

There's a bit more interesting behind this story about Hall (that's his name):
when we got the Stasi documents and the NSA-documents (13 088 documents/pages), including the National Sigint Requirement List [NSRL] (4258 pages).

The normal procedure was circumvented, later this was justified by the Federal Interior Ministry due to "an agreement under international law" with the USA, which didn't allow German institutions to get knowledge of these papers.

That really could have been so and only changed in 1992.

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@glitterbag,

I look at all this spying and intelligence stuff as the lesser of evils. I would much rather that we attempt to keep up with terrorist or other information involving security issues through tracking and intelligence work and through the courts, also do it by working with other countries and diplomacy and sanctions and even negotiating rather than wars and secret prisons and torturing trying to get information out of terror suspects.

However, I do think once we have suspects, they should be granted a lot more legal protections than they currently have.

It is possible that we implanted informers just simply to keep up with what Germany was going to do in regards to all this spying business. If we did do that, then that really can not be justified nor can listening in on the UN or leaders of nations through the cell phones or emails or whatnot. It is there I agree with Walter.

I am not claiming to be in a any position to be knowledgeable at all this stuff, but these are just my thoughts and beliefs after a couple of years of reading here and on the news on the internet.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter, thank you for providing the story given to the German people. Unfortunately it's not even close to what happened. The NSRL's are a wish list of hoped for information. I don't know what east Germany or the USSR called their wish list, but the NSRL's don't provide sources and methods. It couldn't have possibly been a surprise to our adversaries, and it wouldn't help the USSR or Stasi. But Hall provided something much more sensitive, that tipped off those countries on ways to thwart Western Efforts.

I'm actually shocked that you wonder when or if the US will ever think of Germany as a friend or partner. Our agencies have been attached at the hip for years, our citizens work side by side with yours. The US funds most of Germany's intell collection and in compliance with established agreements we share a lot of information. Our countries have cooperated in many operations that foiled terrorist attacts against German citizens, and Germany has done the same for us.

Luckily for Germany, most Americans will not be whipped into a frenzy of anti- German attitude, and I doubt they will understand the anti-America sentiments growing in Germany. Expelling the chief of station is something American policy makers are going to notice and remember when it's time to renew our agreements. If Merkle and her government want Americans out, they will have to find another way to purchase equipment and gather intell and the German people can start paying the entire bill, plus lose access to the assests of the US and post their own people to try to gain access for their own protection.

I don't know what the BND disclosed to the US, it must have been outside our agreements. If we found one of our citizens sharing something outside our agreements, our citizen would have been arrested as well. There is one hard fact that neither country can ignore, prior to reunification, East Germany worked side by side with the USSR, reunification was great for Germany, even Americans think that is good for Germany. But despite what the average German Or American citizen might think, it's going to take time to be convinced the East Germans are fully on board with being a Western style nation. It hasn't affected the agreements between our countries, but expelling a Station Chief is reminiscent of the former Soviet Block. Other than Merkle, I'm not sure how many members of her Government grew up in East Germany prior to reunification.

I've already listed the reasons I think 5 eyes can't occur, as well as why the US/German relashionship is practically the same as 5 eyes. To assume our Government doesn't value our relashionship with Germany seems insulting to me. But maybe because I've paid more attention to the vast amount of tax payer money devoted to support for Germany's protection, and I wonder if Germany assumes that regardless of events that faucet will never be shut off. It's unlikely to be turned off, but if your country wants us out, we will go.

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@glitterbag,

Well, a tablespoon may be convex or concave - depending on from which side you look at it.

I know nothing about "the vast amount of [US] tax payer money devoted to support for Germany's protection".
The figures which are published here (in the various states' and the federal budget) just give the amount, we have to spend for stationed US-forces (and the new NSA building).
It might be within another secret agreement which isn't known to the public (and lawmakers).

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Quote:

Klaus Scharioth, Berlin’s former ambassador to the US, tells DW why Germany’s expulsion of the top CIA official was right and why the current crisis is the biggest challenge yet for transatlantic ties.

'Worst crisis in US-German relations since WW II'

Quote:

DW: Berlin's decision to publicly ask the head of the CIA in Germany leave the country is unprecedented in German-American relations and has triggered a major debate. Was the move justified or overblown?

I think it was a measured response. I believe there had to be a response because what happened is really an espionage overreach which you don't have among friends. And therefore I believe the response was measured.

With a steady drip of new revelations about possible US intelligence operations in Germany coming to light do you consider the current crisis the most serious for US-German relations so far?

Yes I believe this is a very, very serious crisis. I believe there was no need to do that. If the United States wants to know what the Germans are thinking, what the people in the foreign ministry or in the chancellory are thinking they should just call. That's very easy. I know from my days in Washington in office that we have such a close relationship that we talk practically about everything and we also don't hesitate to talk about differences. So there is and was no reason for this kind of espionage. And therefore I think this was basically a waste of taxpayers' money. And it also showed a certain lack of respect of the intelligence community in the United States versus Germany.

Would you classify this as the most profound and challenging crisis in German-American relations since the end of the World War II?

Yes I think so. Because there was some hesitation on the US side to really react to what happened last summer like the eavesdropping on the chancellor's phone and other things and therefore I think if we don't come together again, if we don't rebuild trust and respect together, the US and Germany, I believe we run the risk of losing especially the young people here in Germany.

The Obama administration was seemingly stunned and wrong-footed by the ouster of its operative. Has Washington misread the deep change in public and political sentiment since the beginning of the NSA disclosures over a year ago?

In the beginning I would say yes. Now I think it is essentially a question of control of the intelligence community. And that is a key question. The US intelligence services are probably the best in the world. They have the mission to find out whatever they consider relevant to provide security for the United States. But I think the government needs to bring that under control, because not everything that is doable is also wise. Therefore the big question of the next few months will be whether the US government will be in a position to get the intelligence community fully under control. President Obama of course ordered already a full review of all the activities, but what has happened in the last few weeks shows that full control has not yet been established.

You served as ambassador in Washington. How could a blow-up of this magnitude happen between two long-standing allies that are as close as Germany and the US?

I think the politicians and the leaders in the National Security Council and the State Department probably had no idea what was happening. This is a fairly low level affair, but it shows that - in my view - the services do things which the civilian leaders do not know about and if they knew they would not allow. This is the key lesson: You have to get back control over the intelligence community. Of course we need very close cooperation to fight terrorism. That is absolutely essential. But you don't need spying on friends and you don't need to collect emails of many, many people who are totally unrelated to terrorism.

The US has so far been unwilling to really address German concerns and Berlin has now signaled that it is unwilling to accept business as usual. So where do we go from here?

Three things need to be done. First, the US government has to get their intelligence services fully under control. Second, in the US-German relationship we have had already a very good start with Foreign Minister Steinmeier's idea to start a cyber dialogue with the US. That happened a few weeks ago here in Berlin with Mr. Steinmeier and Mr. Podesta. That's important because we talk about all things that are happening in the real world. What is Google doing? What do the major private companies like Amazon, Twitter do with your data? In this forum we have a dialogue about the use of the Internet that is absolutely necessary. I am very glad this has begun. We are very, very interdependent of each other, also data-wise and so this is good.
The third thing is that we need to reach an informal agreement. There will never be a formal agreement because the United States does not enter into formal agreements on that. But there needs to be an informal understanding on what the intelligence services may do and what they are not allowed to do. That is absolutely essential. I think it's a very good sign Foreign Minister Steinmeier and Secretary of State Kerry met on Sunday in Vienna. Perhaps that could be the beginning of such a process. And let me stress finally that the US and Germany need each other. Both are indispensable partners for each other, so it is crucial that we work things out.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Yes, it was not necessary for the US for this kind of espionage against Germany, our friend. If you don't trust your wife, why are you married?

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@glitterbag,

It's not treasonous behavior to try to stop the USA from committing war crimes and terrorism, gb, which is what the USA has been doing, constantly, since its terrorist beginnings.

If only the USA had more snowdens and far fewer supporters of war criminals and terrorists, folks like you.

Quote:

just occurred to me that it would be a complete waste of energy to provide facts for JTT, all he can see are acts of wrong doing by the US. He's not concerned about attacks on the US. So, it's a useless endeavor.

You are so facile, gbag. No one would attack the USA if the USA wasn't so involved in terrorism, murder, and grand thievery, among other things, around the world.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

From little knowledge I learned about (everything)

"The charge of “anti-Americanism” is itself profoundly anti-American. If the United States does not stand for freedom of thought and speech, for diversity and dissent, then we have been deceived as to the nature of the national project. Were the founding fathers to congregate today to discuss the principles enshrined in their declaration of independence, they would be denounced as “anti-American” and investigated as potential terrorists. Anti-American means today precisely what un-American meant in the 1950s. It is an instrument of dismissal, a means of excluding your critics from rational discourse."

- George Monbiot

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@JTT,

We know what you're going to say before we even start reading your post. Why do you think that is? It's ******* boring! We all know where you stand against the US and Americans. It doesn't need to be repeated ad naseam.

Most of us already agreed with most of your thesis; that should be enough! Enough is enough.

You have a ******* mental illness. The horse died 10,000 posts ago. Why do you keep beating it?

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@cicerone imposter,

You really go to great lengths to illustrate what a liar you are, CI. You toss out ignore like a grade school glitterbag.

The ongoing war crimes of the USA must be kept front and center just as you keep Israel's crimes front and center.

You've never answered why you focus so much on Israel when they are such pikers, such small fry compared to the USA. Why the grand hypocrisy, CI?

The USA has two centuries of unrelenting war crimes and terrorism under its belt. Vicious actions all that were every bit as bad as the Rape of Nanking.

It continues on a daily basis now. Pointing this out is completely rational. Trying to stop it with these silly memes - anti-American blah blah blah - is not at all helpful. It's simply giving support to war criminals and terrorists.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Most of us already agreed with most of your thesis; that should be enough! Enough is enough.

"Most of us", you are being ridiculous! There has been virtually nothing but outright denial, excuses, all manner of diversion. And this considering just how widespread, how unrelenting are these USA crimes.

Point to a thread where the voluminous crimes of the USA have been discussed.

It's going on directly or indirectly, as we speak in Afghanistan, Iraq, numerous Central and South American countries, the Middle East, the Philippines, Africa, so many places that the USA's dirty hands exist.

And you focus on Israel. Why?

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@JTT,

Not true; you just don't see what most of us see in reading other people's or your posts. That's the reason why you go overboard on one topic. It's called an obsession, and everybody else can see it in your posts. Look up "obsession psychology."

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@cicerone imposter,

Most of you see a very uncomfortable topic that you are unable to address.

You can't even answer a simple question. Why are you so focused on Israel when the USA is guilty of much much much worse in terms of volume and the degree of viciousness?

1 Reply

Snowdon is a dummy

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