Snowdon is a dummy

Actually, I have to agree with JTT quite a bit here.

The "big cities" don't like a lot that/when the US-forces leave because it costs quite a bit to re-develop the vast areas occupied. (We had had the same problems here, when the Canadians, Belgians, and British left.)

While the former "anti-Americanism" (Vietnam, NIKE, Pershing etc) was something more like a 'student revolt', today it's especially the more older and more conservative generation which really is upset about the actions.
(And because they/we had had some hope; changes would come with Obama. But hope dies last.)

You're expanding your first nonsense with more nonsense. Quit while you're behind!

You still trust their promises?

You're the one whose closed off to reality. Your imagination gets you to the worst of places, and it ain't pretty!

Olivier5 wrote:

You still trust their promises?

You never know.

I honestly think that they really didn't know the effects of what they did and do.

Those Germans, who had lived under Stasi-spying and especially those, who had suffered this spying experience twice (before under the Nazis) resp. had heard about it from their families, all these know why it is worth to defend privacy and democracy)
What saddens me (and many others) is that is were the Americans (and British)who taught us about it in recent history.

If only the Snowden documents had been published earlier, our government had been saved from a lot of trouble.

NEWS & POLITICS
AlterNet / By Eric Zuesse comments_image 10 COMMENTS
PBS Frontline Exposes (Softly) Bush and Obama Authorization and Coverup of NSA Illegal Surveillance of Americans

Just as with last year's Merkel cellphone affair, German politicians have expressed outrage and pledged action at the arrest of an alleged CIA collaborator in their intel agency. But they are unlikely to follow through.
[...]
Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere - responsible for domestic surveillance - didn't waste much time with rhetoric, saying he wants action. Germany's leading tabloid "Bild" claimed on Monday (07.07.2014) that it had seen an internal government paper in which the minister expressed the view that from now on, the BND would have to take a "360-degree view" in its surveillance. Germany must plan "countermeasures" - in other words, spy on the friendly spies on its own soil, as well as the unfriendly ones.

But what should the German government do about this? Or what can it do? Or what does it even want to do?

"Obviously, this is something that requires a political response in Berlin that goes beyond rhetorical blame on the US," said Henrik Heidenkamp, German defense policy analyst at the Royal United Services Institute. "There is certainly a demand for concrete action."

If the investigation backs up the initial claims, Heidenkamp says Monday's de Maizière statement offers a clue to how Germany will respond. "He is referring to the domestic intelligence picture," he told DW. "Should they get clearance by the Chancellery - Angela Merkel - they'll not only look at the usual suspects, Russia and China, but will basically extend their intelligence gathering to countries like the United States."

"So far, they have not done so - with regard to the United States, France, UK," says Heidenkamp. "So, you can see the tide is changing there."
[...]
Will Germany start looking for agents within the ranks of the CIA in the US?

Heidenkamp doesn't think so. "That would be exactly the behavior we criticize the US for," he said. "Arguably, that would be beyond what German intelligence agencies are capable of. And what would be the benefit of spying within US territory anyway?"

"Even if you only do electronic surveillance of US organizations within Germany, that obviously takes resources away from surveillance of the usual suspects," he added. "Not only is this something that hurts the partnership, it also hurts the interests."

Actually, it has become Obama's worst nightmare!

Quote:

NEWS & POLITICS
AlterNet / By Eric Zuesse comments_image 10 COMMENTS
PBS Frontline Exposes (Softly) Bush and Obama Authorization and Coverup of NSA Illegal Surveillance of Americans

I honestly think that they really didn't know the effects of what they did and do.

NSA SCANDAL -
Germany reacts to 'double agent' scandal

Quote:

Just as with last year's Merkel cellphone affair, German politicians have expressed outrage and pledged action at the arrest of an alleged CIA collaborator in their intel agency. But they are unlikely to follow through.
[...]
Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere - responsible for domestic surveillance - didn't waste much time with rhetoric, saying he wants action. Germany's leading tabloid "Bild" claimed on Monday (07.07.2014) that it had seen an internal government paper in which the minister expressed the view that from now on, the BND would have to take a "360-degree view" in its surveillance. Germany must plan "countermeasures" - in other words, spy on the friendly spies on its own soil, as well as the unfriendly ones.

But what should the German government do about this? Or what can it do? Or what does it even want to do?

"Obviously, this is something that requires a political response in Berlin that goes beyond rhetorical blame on the US," said Henrik Heidenkamp, German defense policy analyst at the Royal United Services Institute. "There is certainly a demand for concrete action."

If the investigation backs up the initial claims, Heidenkamp says Monday's de Maizière statement offers a clue to how Germany will respond. "He is referring to the domestic intelligence picture," he told DW. "Should they get clearance by the Chancellery - Angela Merkel - they'll not only look at the usual suspects, Russia and China, but will basically extend their intelligence gathering to countries like the United States."

"So far, they have not done so - with regard to the United States, France, UK," says Heidenkamp. "So, you can see the tide is changing there."
[...]
Will Germany start looking for agents within the ranks of the CIA in the US?

Heidenkamp doesn't think so. "That would be exactly the behavior we criticize the US for," he said. "Arguably, that would be beyond what German intelligence agencies are capable of. And what would be the benefit of spying within US territory anyway?"

Yeah...that is the big bugaboo.

Quote:

"Even if you only do electronic surveillance of US organizations within Germany, that obviously takes resources away from surveillance of the usual suspects," he added. "Not only is this something that hurts the partnership, it also hurts the interests."

Left a few words off there, I suspect. After "interests"...it should have read, "of Germany."

Edward Snowden's lawyer in Germany says the NSA whistleblower wishes to return to the US in the 'medium to long term'. Wolfgang Kaleck says Snowden is living in 'relative safety' in Russia and avoiding any activities that threaten his security. Kaleck says Snowden wants the focus not to be on him as a person but rather the privacy issues at stake

NB: That quote above is misleading. I didn't write that as can been seen in my original post.

Besides that, I've quoted verbatim and didn't falsify the original as that response implies.

Chancellor Angela Merkel’s government is planning to scrap a no-spy agreement Germany has held with Britain and the United States since 1945 in response to an embarrassing US-German intelligence service scandal which has deeply soured relations between Berlin and Washington.

The unprecedented change to Berlin’s counter-espionage policy was announced by Ms Merkel’s Interior Minister, Thomas de Maizière. He said that Berlin wanted “360‑degree surveillance” of all intelligence-gathering operations in Germany.

The intelligence services of the Allied victors, the United States, Britain and France, have hitherto been regarded as “friendly” to Germany. Their diplomatic and information-gathering activities were exempted from surveillance by Berlin’s equivalent of M15 – the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND).
[...]
Chancellor Merkel interrupted a current trade visit to China on Monday to describe the scandal as a “very serious development”. She added: “It is a clear contradiction of the notion of trustworthy co-operation.” German politicians have been shocked that the Americans not only failed to report the “double agent” but recruited him.

Several German MPs on Monday demanded the expulsion of the American agents in Germany who recruited the “double agent”. Hans-Peter Uhl, a leading conservative, told Der Spiegel: “ It goes without saying that the [US] intelligence official responsible should leave Germany.”
[...]
New German counter-espionage measures would almost certainly result in the monitoring of “listening posts”, which both the American National Security Agency (NSA) and its British equivalent, GCHQ, run from the roofs of their respective Berlin embassies.

Their existence was revealed at the height of the first spying scandal to dent Berlin’s relations with Washington which erupted last year when evidence supplied by the US whistle-blower Edward Snowden revealed that NSA bugged Ms Merkel’s mobile phone.

The US bugging operation was conducted from a listening post on the roof of the American embassy in Berlin, which is located only metres from the government district. Britain’s GCHQ was operating an almost identical “listening post” from the top of the UK’s embassy on Berlin’s nearby Wilhelmstrasse.

Quote:

Edward Snowden's lawyer in Germany says the NSA whistleblower wishes to return to the US in the 'medium to long term'. Wolfgang Kaleck says Snowden is living in 'relative safety' in Russia and avoiding any activities that threaten his security. Kaleck says Snowden wants the focus not to be on him as a person but rather the privacy issues at stake

Source and link to video: >Edward Snowden wants to return to US in 'medium to long term', says lawyer - video<

Germany to spy on US for first time since 1945 after ‘double agent’ scanda

Quote:

Chancellor Angela Merkel’s government is planning to scrap a no-spy agreement Germany has held with Britain and the United States since 1945 in response to an embarrassing US-German intelligence service scandal which has deeply soured relations between Berlin and Washington.

The unprecedented change to Berlin’s counter-espionage policy was announced by Ms Merkel’s Interior Minister, Thomas de Maizière. He said that Berlin wanted “360‑degree surveillance” of all intelligence-gathering operations in Germany.

The intelligence services of the Allied victors, the United States, Britain and France, have hitherto been regarded as “friendly” to Germany. Their diplomatic and information-gathering activities were exempted from surveillance by Berlin’s equivalent of M15 – the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND).
[...]
Chancellor Merkel interrupted a current trade visit to China on Monday to describe the scandal as a “very serious development”. She added: “It is a clear contradiction of the notion of trustworthy co-operation.” German politicians have been shocked that the Americans not only failed to report the “double agent” but recruited him.

Several German MPs on Monday demanded the expulsion of the American agents in Germany who recruited the “double agent”. Hans-Peter Uhl, a leading conservative, told Der Spiegel: “ It goes without saying that the [US] intelligence official responsible should leave Germany.”
[...]
New German counter-espionage measures would almost certainly result in the monitoring of “listening posts”, which both the American National Security Agency (NSA) and its British equivalent, GCHQ, run from the roofs of their respective Berlin embassies.

Their existence was revealed at the height of the first spying scandal to dent Berlin’s relations with Washington which erupted last year when evidence supplied by the US whistle-blower Edward Snowden revealed that NSA bugged Ms Merkel’s mobile phone.

The US bugging operation was conducted from a listening post on the roof of the American embassy in Berlin, which is located only metres from the government district. Britain’s GCHQ was operating an almost identical “listening post” from the top of the UK’s embassy on Berlin’s nearby Wilhelmstrasse.

The intelligence services of the Allied victors, the United States, Britain and France, have hitherto been regarded as “friendly” to Germany. Their diplomatic and information-gathering activities were exempted from surveillance by Berlin’s equivalent of M15 – the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND).