42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 02:16 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

I see here (and in many other places) the assertion that Snowden is being charged with espionage.

Nearly as I can determine, so far Snowden has been charged with only three things:

Pursuant to 18 USC 641: Theft of government property

Pursuant to 18 USC 793(d): Unauthorized communication of National Defense information

Pursuant to 18 US 798(a)(3): Willful communication of classified government information to unauthorized persons.


None of those seem to be espionage, although two of them are obtained from the so-called Espionage Act.

Does anyone KNOW for sure if this qualifies as being charged with espionage…or if that is a separate and specific charge…which has not been made?

Snowden is charged under the 1917 Espionage Act. Thus, the international warrant is about espionage.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Fri 20 Jun, 2014 02:22 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

I see here (and in many other places) the assertion that Snowden is being charged with espionage.

Nearly as I can determine, so far Snowden has been charged with only three things:

Pursuant to 18 USC 641: Theft of government property

Pursuant to 18 USC 793(d): Unauthorized communication of National Defense information

Pursuant to 18 US 798(a)(3): Willful communication of classified government information to unauthorized persons.


None of those seem to be espionage, although two of them are obtained from the so-called Espionage Act.

Does anyone KNOW for sure if this qualifies as being charged with espionage…or if that is a separate and specific charge…which has not been made?

Snowden is charged under the 1917 Espionage Act. Thus, the international warrant is about espionage.


Thank you for that answer, Walter. Now if we can find a question that fits it...all would be well.

In the meantime, I hope someone answers the question I actually asked.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 21 Jun, 2014 12:16 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
In the meantime, I hope someone answers the question I actually asked.
Meanwhile, here in Germany the big question is why the chancellery and the government helped the agencies to get the permissions that made far-reaching surveillance possible by offering an alternative interpretation of the laws.

Among its "success stories," NSA documents (published this week by Spiegel, see above) praise how the German government was able to weaken the public's protection from surveillance.
Quote: "The German government has changed its interpretation of the G10 law, which protects German citizens' communications, to allow the BND to be more flexible with the sharing of protected information with foreign partners." (Germany's G10 law regulates in what circumstances its intelligence agencies are allowed to break Article 10 of the German constitution, which guarantees the privacy of letters and telecommunications.)
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sat 21 Jun, 2014 05:20 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
In the meantime, I hope someone answers the question I actually asked.
Meanwhile, here in Germany the big question is why the chancellery and the government helped the agencies to get the permissions that made far-reaching surveillance possible by offering an alternative interpretation of the laws.

Among its "success stories," NSA documents (published this week by Spiegel, see above) praise how the German government was able to weaken the public's protection from surveillance.
Quote: "The German government has changed its interpretation of the G10 law, which protects German citizens' communications, to allow the BND to be more flexible with the sharing of protected information with foreign partners." (Germany's G10 law regulates in what circumstances its intelligence agencies are allowed to break Article 10 of the German constitution, which guarantees the privacy of letters and telecommunications.)


Any chance it could be because the world is evolving at an ever increasing rate...and the need to hold a few dedicated individuals determined to terrorize the world dictates that some privacy be circumvented?

Could it be that some of the people making these decisions are simply wiser and more realistic than some of the people maintaining "personal privacy at any cost?"


The greater good of the many...etc.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 21 Jun, 2014 06:05 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Any chance it could be because the world is evolving at an ever increasing rate...and the need to hold a few dedicated individuals determined to terrorize the world dictates that some privacy be circumvented?

Could it be that some of the people making these decisions are simply wiser and more realistic than some of the people maintaining "personal privacy at any cost?"

The greater good of the many...etc.
That could be. But then it wouldn't be like you wrote but it would be circumventing the constitution and disregarding laws.

If that's something you regard to be "greater goods of many", it's certainly your opinion which might be fine in the USA.

I've a different ... law-obeying citizen, democracy etc etc
We have had, in our unfortunate past, governments, where decisions were made undemocratically, laws were just on the paper and the constitution not worth reading.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Sat 21 Jun, 2014 06:33 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Any chance it could be because the world is evolving at an ever increasing rate...and the need to hold a few dedicated individuals determined to terrorize the world dictates that some privacy be circumvented?

Could it be that some of the people making these decisions are simply wiser and more realistic than some of the people maintaining "personal privacy at any cost?"

The greater good of the many...etc.
That could be. But then it wouldn't be like you wrote but it would be circumventing the constitution and disregarding laws.

If that's something you regard to be "greater goods of many", it's certainly your opinion which might be fine in the USA.

I've a different ... law-obeying citizen, democracy etc etc
We have had, in our unfortunate past, governments, where decisions were made undemocratically, laws were just on the paper and the constitution not worth reading.


If you do have a "different, law-obeying citizen democracy there in Germany, then why your:

Quote:
Meanwhile, here in Germany the big question is why the chancellery and the government helped the agencies to get the permissions that made far-reaching surveillance possible by offering an alternative interpretation of the laws.


Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 21 Jun, 2014 06:53 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
]If you do have a "different, law-obeying citizen democracy there in Germany, then why your:

Quote:
Meanwhile, here in Germany the big question is why the chancellery and the government helped the agencies to get the permissions that made far-reaching surveillance possible by offering an alternative interpretation of the laws.

That's why I posted it ("big question"), that's why the committee is at loggerheads with government, the Federal Prosecution is investigating, several cases at the Federal Constitutional Court are going on ...

But I agree with you: it really is a very bad thing that our government hasn't obeyed the laws and circumvented the constitution just because perhaps think "the greater good of the many" ... (which actually would mean, our constitution and our laws aren't that good)
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sat 21 Jun, 2014 06:55 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
]If you do have a "different, law-obeying citizen democracy there in Germany, then why your:

Quote:
Meanwhile, here in Germany the big question is why the chancellery and the government helped the agencies to get the permissions that made far-reaching surveillance possible by offering an alternative interpretation of the laws.

That's why I posted it ("big question"), that's why the committee is at loggerheads with government, the Federal Prosecution is investigating, several cases at the Federal Constitutional Court are going on ...

But I agree with you: it really is a very bad thing that our government hasn't obeyed the laws and circumvented the constitution just because perhaps think "the greater good of the many" ... (which actually would mean, our constitution and our laws aren't that good)


Perhaps it actually means that it (and ours) have to be re-thought in the face of new circumstances.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 21 Jun, 2014 06:57 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Perhaps it actually means that it (and ours) have to be re-thought in the face of new circumstances.
Well, at least here it only could happen with a revolution or similar. (It is not possible for any political party, any legislation or any national commitment to violate "the basic principles" of our "Basic Law".)
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sat 21 Jun, 2014 07:06 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Perhaps it actually means that it (and ours) have to be re-thought in the face of new circumstances.
Well, at least here it only could happen with a revolution or similar. (It is not possible for any political party, any legislation or any national commitment to violate "the basic principles" of our "Basic Law".)


Walter...I love ya. But you have got to wake up and smell the roses.

It is already happening there. That is the basis for your original question...that it is already happening.

Anyway, Edward Snowden is not, in my opinion, a dummy. He is someone charged with violating very important US laws...and he should be given the opportunity to stand trial on those charges.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 24 Jun, 2014 11:25 am
“We watch everything you do” - Snowden speaks to the Council of Europe
Quote:
"Whistleblowers" who disclose state wrongdoing in the public interest should be protected from retaliation, provided they acted in good faith and followed procedures, a committee of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) said in a draft resolution made public today.
[...]
The committee also interviewed, via videoconference from Moscow, the fugitive ex-CIA employee Edward Snowden, the most known whistleblower, who defended his acts: "When citizens are reduced to the status of subjects, we are diminished as free people, as a society. It is a subversion of democratic rules to use the pretext of defending state secrets in order to implement programs that the population would have never accepted through a public vote. Governments are using secrecy to push programs that infringe human rights.”

Snowden also said: “We watch everything, we watch what you buy, where you travel, whom you love… These are not the values of Western society.” He also said: “We, in the USA, collect American communications to a greater extent than we collect Russian communications."

NB: the Council of Europe is NOT the EU nor an EU-institution, but the international organisation of all 47 European countries in the areas of legal standards, human rights, democratic development, the rule of law and cultural co-operation.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Tue 24 Jun, 2014 12:33 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

“We watch everything you do” - Snowden speaks to the Council of Europe
Quote:
"Whistleblowers" who disclose state wrongdoing in the public interest should be protected from retaliation, provided they acted in good faith and followed procedures, a committee of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) said in a draft resolution made public today.
[...]
The committee also interviewed, via videoconference from Moscow, the fugitive ex-CIA employee Edward Snowden, the most known whistleblower, who defended his acts: "When citizens are reduced to the status of subjects, we are diminished as free people, as a society. It is a subversion of democratic rules to use the pretext of defending state secrets in order to implement programs that the population would have never accepted through a public vote. Governments are using secrecy to push programs that infringe human rights.”

Snowden also said: “We watch everything, we watch what you buy, where you travel, whom you love… These are not the values of Western society.” He also said: “We, in the USA, collect American communications to a greater extent than we collect Russian communications."

NB: the Council of Europe is NOT the EU nor an EU-institution, but the international organisation of all 47 European countries in the areas of legal standards, human rights, democratic development, the rule of law and cultural co-operation.


Ya gotta hope this guy Snowden gets an opportunity to defend himself in court on these charges. He should be able to bring into his defense all these things you are citing, Walter.

Yup...he deserves a fair trial.

And "the Council of Europe" should attempt to file an Amicus Curiae brief on his behalf.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 24 Jun, 2014 12:52 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
And "the Council of Europe" should attempt to file an Amicus Curiae brief on his behalf.[/b]
I'm not sure why you put the Council of Europe in quotation marks - but since French is the official language as well Conseil de l’Europe is perhaps better.

The ECHR is part of the Council of Europe. But Snowden is an American, isn't it?

Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Tue 24 Jun, 2014 01:31 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
And "the Council of Europe" should attempt to file an Amicus Curiae brief on his behalf.[/b]
I'm not sure why you put the Council of Europe in quotation marks - but since French is the official language as well Conseil de l’Europe is perhaps better.

The ECHR is part of the Council of Europe. But Snowden is an American, isn't it?




Yes...an American who deserves a fair trial on the charges that have been brought against him. And the information you brought forth here should be included in his defense.

Don'tcha think?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 24 Jun, 2014 02:08 pm
From the report in the Guardian: Home secretary denies security services engaged in mass surveillance
Quote:
May [the UK's home secretary] said that while such firms can "drive a car up your road and put an image of your home online for the world to observe" it was far harder for governments.


Not here in Germany where Google decided not to expand or update existing coverage of the few places (football stadiums only) and the 15 cities due to legal actions.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 25 Jun, 2014 11:54 am
@Walter Hinteler,
U.S. looks to provide Europeans access to courts in privacy cases
Quote:
The Obama administration is seeking to widen its access to information about terrorism suspects in Europe by opening the door to American courts for Europeans who suspect that their privacy rights have been violated by the U.S. government, Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. said Wednesday.

In a speech in Athens, Holder said the administration will urge Congress to provide citizens of the European Union with the same rights as Americans in cases of “intentional or willful disclosures of protected information.” In return, European countries would share more information with the United States about suspected terrorism activity, especially the movement of European citizens in Syria and elsewhere in the Middle East
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 25 Jun, 2014 12:42 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
In return, European countries would share more information with the United States about suspected terrorism activity, especially the movement of European citizens in Syria and elsewhere in the Middle East


Notice how " especially the movement of European citizens in Syria and elsewhere in the Middle East" makes the statement sound reasonable without adding one iota of meaning to the first part of it.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Wed 25 Jun, 2014 04:17 pm
This is great however it is still far better to have your devices encrypted to the point that the matter is moot, as no one but you can access your phones or computers and so on in any case.


Quote:
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/supreme-court-decision-cell-phone-warrant-108287.html

The Supreme Court struck a major blow in favor of digital privacy Wednesday by ruling unanimously that police generally need a warrant before searching the cellphone or personal electronic device of a person arrested.

In a sweeping opinion, Chief Justice John Roberts resoundingly rejected arguments that searches of digital devices for information are comparable to searches law enforcement officers often conduct for contraband after making an arrest.

“That is like saying a ride on horseback is materially indistinguishable from a flight to the moon. Both are ways of getting from point A to point B, but little else justifies lumping them together. Modern cell phones, as a category, implicate privacy concerns far beyond those implicated by the search of a cigarette pack, a wallet, or a purse,” Roberts wrote.

The chief justice went even further, arguing that the privacy concerns at stake in the search of a phone are even more acute than those involved in the search of a home — the place traditionally considered most sacrosanct under American law.


“A cell phone search would typically expose to the government far more than the most exhaustive search of a house: A phone not only contains in digital form many sensitive records previously found in the home; it also contains a broad array of private information never found in a home in any form — unless the phone is,” Roberts wrote.

The court’s ruling was surprisingly broad in both its protection of privacy and in its savvy about the evolution of modern technology.

At oral arguments in the case, Roberts seemed surprised that an individual might have a legitimate reason to carry two cellphones. And Justice Antonin Scalia seemed to favor a result that would have allowed police to conduct a warrantless phone search for evidence of the crime a person was arrested for, but not other crimes. That distinction is considered and rejected in the majority opinion Scalia joined Wednesday.

Roberts acknowledged that the court’s decision would make it harder for police to fight crime but said that fact did not justify excusing them from getting a warrant before conducting searches of cellphones and smartphones.



“We cannot deny that our decision today will have an impact on the ability of law enforcement to combat crime,” Roberts wrote for the court. “Cell phones have become important tools … among members of criminal enterprises and can provide valuable incriminating information about dangerous criminals. Privacy comes at a cost.”

All the justices except for Justice Samuel Alito joined Roberts’ majority opinion. Alito agreed with the court’s basic holding on warrants but said he’d give legislatures more leeway to set rules limiting the warrant requirement in certain circumstances.

The Justice Department vowed to work with law enforcement agencies to ensure “full compliance” with Wednesday’s decision.

“We will make use of whatever technology is available to preserve evidence on cell phones while seeking a warrant, and we will assist our agents in determining when exigent circumstances or another applicable exception to the warrant requirement will permit them to search the phone immediately without a warrant,” said DOJ spokeswoman Ellen Canale. “Our commitment to vigorously enforcing the criminal laws and protecting the public while respecting the privacy interests protected by the Fourth Amendment is unwavering.”

The ruling in a pair of related cases is the latest effort of the highest court to grapple with the way advancing technology has outgrown the legal framework developed decades ago about what law enforcement is allowed to look at when arresting an individual.

The ruling gives guidance to law enforcement across the country, where federal and state courts have split on the question of whether a warrant is needed to look through a suspect’s cellphone at arrest, and how far they can go.

Privacy advocates have argued that with the vast amount of data stored on a device and in the cloud, the old court precedent built around searching an arrested man’s cigarette case shouldn’t apply. On the other hand, law enforcement has said that officers need to be able to search suspects both for safety and for the ability to preserve evidence, and cellphones or mobile devices are no different.

Roberts said the fact that data moves between the cloud and a smartphone without any action by the user and often without the user’s knowledge is all the more reason to insist on a warrant before allowing police to start rummaging through a device.

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“Cell phone users often may not know whether particular information is stored on the device or in the cloud, and it generally makes little difference,” he wrote. “Moreover, the same type of data may be stored locally on the device for one user and in the cloud for another. … Officers searching a phone’s data would not typically know whether the information they are viewing was stored locally at the time of the arrest or has been pulled from the cloud.”

The court’s opinion explicitly leaves open the opportunity for police to search a cellphone without a warrant in “exigent circumstances,” such as a ticking-bomb scenario or when there’s reason to believe evidence is about to be destroyed.

In the first case, Riley v. California, a man was pulled over for expired tags and a search of his car revealed weapons. Police went through his phone at the scene and again later at the police station, finding media and messages that tied him to another crime and gang activity. Convicted, David Riley appealed to the California Court of Appeal, which upheld his conviction based on the evidence, which the judges said was constitutionally gathered. The Supreme Court took the case after the California Supreme Court rejected his appeal.

In the second case, United States v. Wurie, out of Massachusetts, Brima Wurie was arrested after an apparent drug deal. While he was in custody, police used a phone log entry for “my house” to go to Wurie’s residence and collect evidence that led to his conviction. Unlike in the Riley case, the 1st Circuit Court of Appeals overturned the verdict, ruling that the evidence collection was a violation of Fourth Amendment search and seizure protections and that a warrant is necessary to view any data on a suspect’s cellphone.

The lively oral arguments in the case in April exposed the court’s struggles in recent years to grapple with technology, as the distinguished justices discussed everything from Facebook to Fitbit and the implications of the integration of mobile devices into the average American’s life.

The court’s ruling was a defeat for the Obama administration, which supported law enforcement’s stance in the cases. Administration officials advanced the position that there was no fundamental difference between smartphones and other items a person could carry, such as a briefcase with personal documents or a billfold containing photos — a view the justices dismissed Wednesday as naively simplistic.

Jennifer Haberkorn contributed to this report.



0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 26 Jun, 2014 09:19 am
Britain's intelligence agencies are told to make privacy invasion assessment
Quote:
Britain's security and intelligence agencies should consider how far they are invading people's privacy when they seek permission for intrusive surveillance, their government-appointed watchdog has recommended.

Sir Mark Waller, the intelligence services commissioner, said the agencies should set out the specific invasion of privacy requested so that a proper assessment could be made of whether it was justified.

The commissioner, a former appeal judge, said he had spoken to the heads of the security service MI5, the secret intelligence service MI6 and the eavesdropping centre GCHQ about the revelations made by Edward Snowden, the computer analyst whistleblower who provided the Guardian with top-secret National Security Agency (NSA) documents leading to revelations about US surveillance on phone and internet communications.
[...]
Waller's reference to the UK may be significant: the intelligence agencies make no claims that they comply with local laws outside the British Isles.
... ... ...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 27 Jun, 2014 05:02 am
Because Verizon could be (or is) letting US spy agencies eavesdrop on official communications, the German government has said it will not renew an Internet services contract with the US-based telecoms firm.
German government cancels Internet contract with Verizon
 

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